Some (Relatively) Brief Thoughts From an Ex-New Player

[Fire Wraith]

-By nature of being in a group, you're interacting, you're being social.  Are all groups as chatty as others?  No, but it's a start.  So yes, I would much rather people have to work together, even if they're not talking at all - and many people do use those excursions as an excuse to interact.

-Second, even if you're just firing off mostly meaningless arrows, darts, slingstones, etc, you're still participating to some degree.  The point isn't mechanics, or you feeling good about yourself.  Roleplay it as you like, but the point is you're out there interacting with people.

-CD isn't about me, the Admin, telling a big story about what happens to Cormyr.  CD is about the stories of all the characters.  What's happening in Cormyr is merely the stage and the backdrop for that.

[Ogre Time Yay]

"I can safely say this is the slowest server for leveling up that I have seen by at least an order of magnitude, possibly two (keeping in mind the average level is like 16-20 and the cap is 30, bit different than a server with a level cap of 7 or something). Out of curiosity, which servers are you thinking of?"

Forgotten Realms Cormyr, it would take me forever and an age to level up, that was awhile back when I use to play that though.





"I suppose this would be a bad time to ask something along the lines of "what in the world is a faction?"  Because to me that sounds like Zhentarim (sp?) versus Cormyr versus Drow versus whatever but I have a hunch that's not what you mean."

I'm thinking more along the lines of Purple Dragons, Dwarven Clans, White Cloaks, ect. ect.





"Two big differences there, though:

1, the lower level players don't interact with the higher level ones 99% of the time, at least not in terms of combat. They don't do dungeons or quests together. The lower levels effectively have their own "sphere" of interaction which is people +-3 levels or whatever with plenty of people in that range to do stuff with. That's quite different from here where it's being suggested a level 9 could be in a group with a level 21+ character.

2, the lower levels tend to "catch up" massively, massively faster than here.

As you might guess, it's both of these existing at the same time which I find problematic. If I had plenty of stuff to do with lots of PCs my level I'd mind a lot less that it would take me a year just to be average on the server. But instead I mostly find people 6+ levels higher, which is a rather big deal when you're only level 9. "

1. Very true

2. Fortunately the focus of this server is, like FW said, RPing. I know I seem to be repeating myself, but on an RP server people should focus less on the level of other characters around them, and more on what that character has to offer story wise. Here you can get away with level 9 characters working with level 16 characters because the level 16 characters and up aren't judging the lower levels tagging along, in fact they're -usually- wanting lower level characters to tag along on this server specifically so that they can help that lower level character catch up with others (at least that was the experience I gained from playing here). This is opposed to most other MMOs out there where if a character with weaker gear than the rest of the party shows up, he or she gets booted from the group so that the party mentioned has a better chance of successfully completing a dungeon for da epic lewtz!

That's rarely the case here, and more often than not I have seen lower level characters get offered the bulk of the loot (or at least what is most useful to them at the time) after they participated in a raid somewhere. So I guess you could say the answer to 2. is that it's not necessary to section off levels into groups because there's no real penalty for doing so, and no one as gonna get offended if someone of a lower level tags along.





"Out of curiosity, do you happen to recall how many days it took you to go from 10 to 16? And how many hours per day you averaged? I suppose I'm having a hard time believing that "before I knew it" equates to 10+ months but maybe we have very different timescales."

It took me a long time, no mistake about it, but what I mean when I say "before I knew it" is "time flew by fast because I was having fun"... That sort of thing.



 

"FWIW my first server was World of Caenyr, which is an RP server, and the server I played on the longest before leaving (which was part of a mass exodus where half the server left due to drama)."

Then I repeat what I said in my first post, if you ever feel like coming back to this server I'd love to include you along on dungeon runs and what not. Not trying to sound corny or anything, but helping out newer or lower level characters is something I really have fun doing, it's not just an in-character thing for me, as a player I find it rewarding to watch other characters go from 10 to 16.

[Garage Trashcan]

Jun 18, 2014 8:41:54 GMT -5 Ogre Time Yay said:

"I can safely say this is the slowest server for leveling up that I have seen by at least an order of magnitude, possibly two (keeping in mind the average level is like 16-20 and the cap is 30, bit different than a server with a level cap of 7 or something). Out of curiosity, which servers are you thinking of?"

Forgotten Realms Cormyr, it would take me forever and an age to level up, that was awhile back when I use to play that though.

I had friends that played there years ago and was told that it usually took 3-5 months to hit level 20... so they decided to hit level 20 in 1 month. Granted, I have no clue how much time was spent daily on the absurd amounts of grinding, but eh. Not sure if anything has changed since then in regards to the leveling system.

[Ogre Time Yay]

Jun 18, 2014 8:48:29 GMT -5 Garage Trashcan said:

Jun 18, 2014 8:41:54 GMT -5 Ogre Time Yay said:

"I can safely say this is the slowest server for leveling up that I have seen by at least an order of magnitude, possibly two (keeping in mind the average level is like 16-20 and the cap is 30, bit different than a server with a level cap of 7 or something). Out of curiosity, which servers are you thinking of?"

Forgotten Realms Cormyr, it would take me forever and an age to level up, that was awhile back when I use to play that though.

I had friends that played there years ago and was told that it usually took 3-5 months to hit level 20... so they decided to hit level 20 in 1 month. Granted, I have no clue how much time was spent daily on the absurd amounts of grinding, but eh. Not sure if anything has changed since then in regards to the leveling system.

Thing about FRC is that there was no experience cap daily, and as long as you kept killin', you'd be levelin'.

The thing that balanced that out, at least for me, was that at the time that I played on the server there were rules. Characters could not party up with other characters if they weren't within a few levels of each other, you can't fight through an area on the server more than once a day, and at the time I noticed that alot of the areas available from low to mid level characters were few and rough as hell. On the climb leveling up, I felt like I was running out of options alot, maybe that's why it felt so long to me.

[Garage Trashcan]

Jun 18, 2014 8:55:08 GMT -5 Ogre Time Yay said:

Jun 18, 2014 8:48:29 GMT -5 Garage Trashcan said:

I had friends that played there years ago and was told that it usually took 3-5 months to hit level 20... so they decided to hit level 20 in 1 month. Granted, I have no clue how much time was spent daily on the absurd amounts of grinding, but eh. Not sure if anything has changed since then in regards to the leveling system.

Thing about FRC is that there was no experience cap daily, and as long as you kept killin', you'd be levelin'.

The thing that balanced that out, at least for me, was that at the time that I played on the server there were rules. Characters could not party up with other characters if they weren't within a few levels of each other, you can't fight through an area on the server more than once a day, and at the time I noticed that alot of the areas available from low to mid level characters were few and rough as hell. On the climb leveling up, I felt like I was running out of options alot, maybe that's why it felt so long to me.

My guess is that they ignored the "once a day" rule. From the way it was described to me, I think they just camped the same area waiting for respawns. If a DM wasn't watching, how would anyone ever know? And I'm familiar with the 4-level rule. I used to play on an action server that did that.

It's also my understanding that death led to losing a level there... so it was actually fairly significant.

/stopsderailing

[daphne]

Well, yes, it does take a while to get to level 16.  Anywhere from 4-8 months depending on whether you play alts or get a lot of DM love. 

But all those level 16 characters you see on the server took that long to develop.   Some characters, who may not even be epic level, have been played for years.  From a brutally honest standpoint, how would -you- feel if you played a character for that long, got to this 'server midpoint' and then saw new players joining and getting 'caught up' in two weeks?

But aside from that, the way the server is structured is to facilitate Individual stories, as FW said.  How can my rogue overcome his time spent in a Zhent prison to become an accepted member of the society?  And if I succeed, what will I do with that acceptance, help others or just rob them blind?  In order to try to tell stories like that the leveling path is pretty deliberate

- You get up to level 10 real fast and accumulate some money, as well as get familiar with a lot of the basics of the server if you are a new player. 
- Levels 11-15 can and do interact with any other character on the server.  Are they as strong in dungeons as some others?  No, but they can usually hold their own and contribute.    But the main point is this is a time of character development.  What goals does she pursue?  What friends and allies does she gather?  What enemies does she make?  To most of the players around here, these questions and how they roll out for a PC are much more important, and interesting, than how to get that +1 BAB out of my build so I can kill the Lich by level 15. 
- Levels 16-20 - you can do most if not all of the dungeons in the module, and are an 'established' character for the most part.  You can play a part in civic life, found a guild or lead a faction, build a house - and progress towards your main character goals.
- Epic levels - There is some epic level content, with more under development.  I've never played an epic, so I am not sure how satisfying it is for the average player.  But these tend to be the PCs that ascend to positions of local power, respect, and influence. 

I've taken three characters up to level 15, and each time I've had a lot of interaction with higher level characters - making friends, enemies, lovers, trading partners...Yes, there have been a few times where I felt a little useless in a dungeon that my character's skills didn't really fit very well, as well as being low level.  But you can't be a star all the time, and I can usually learn some tactics and the like by watching. 

Thanks very much for all the observations and good discussion sparked.  Whatever we can do to make things clearer to people starting here is a good thing!  Hope you decide to give us a try again sometime.

[Garage Trashcan]

Jun 18, 2014 9:54:24 GMT -5 daphne said:

- Epic levels - There is some epic level content, with more under development.  I've never played an epic, so I am not sure how satisfying it is for the average player.  But these tend to be the PCs that ascend to positions of local power, respect, and influence. 

Epic Levels are nothing special, coming from someone who complained forever that his character wasn't epic when the only thing holding me back was not playing the character enough. Sure, at some point reaching 21 might feel "great" or something, but really it's no different than being pre-epic in that your character has the same relationships, interactions, etc. they had before. It's really just a new tier of gear for people who care about that stuff, which results in spamming Frost Giants/Gnolls like no tomorrow since the other epic dungeons are either unbalanced or broken. Partly because there's not that high of a demand for epic content, and partly because Vincent would have to be more insane than he already is to rebalance and fix all the dungeons (probably 90% of the pre-epic dungeons need rebalancing as well, in regards to both mobs and loot).

My biggest complaint is how "fake" everything feels once you reach epic because, at least for me, my suspension of disbelief has been completely shot. There's been too many plots where the outcome is just "lolgoodguyswin." Yes, it's fun to "win" and this is fine. But sometimes there's fun in the struggle and the negative as much as the positive. Sometimes it needs to be, "We won...but at a great cost beyond some random NPCs we'll forget in a year." PCs sign up for quests knowing the risks and that it may cost them their lives or worse. If someone doesn't like these plots, they can avoid them. Because of decisions characters have made, they've permanently lost stat points, saved Suzail at the cost or their life, or even been reborn as half-celestials as a surprise to the player. Very rarely, does anything seem that serious to me anymore and the issue lies fundamentally with FR in that if there's a big enough problem, some super-epic character will fix it. In PnP, you can just remove NPCs like Elminster and Drizz't from the question, but those characters are PCs here. It's very hard to do "the universe is imploding" plots because it would result in everyone, save the most epic of the epic, dying or they'd eventually become stale, too. We're specifically asked, for the sake of DM sanity, to take threats like these seriously so it doesn't become a complete farce. In some situations, this is still possible for me. But when the most awesome, crazy thing your character has ever done was at level 11, there's not much farther to go from there. Eventually, threats do seem like a joke compared to what you've dealt with before. If a character can pull so much from the Weave at once that Mystra has to personally ask them to stop, yes, they're going to laugh in the face of danger.

Yes, everyone should be entitled to play however they wish to play, but it becomes very, very difficult to plan around a world where a group of a few people can stop most of the things you can throw at them without a blink, hence the insane power creep in later dungeons and pretty pets Vincent has made for us to play with (remember, we're all just toys to him while he laughs maniacally from his Evil Lair). It's why many of the epics have to take a back seat. It's not the worst thing in the world, they've earned it. They've done their hero-ing. But short of a second Godswar or events that could literally tear the world apart and kill most other PCs in the process, there's not much that threatens them. So instead, we have to sit back and pretend the things that do happen are supposed to matter in the grand scheme of things. If this were a server where everyone could reach level 40 in a week, that's a different matter. But it's not.

This has mostly been re-hashings of talks we've had about epics in the past.

/rant

[The Red Mage]

He means factions as in player guilds like the White Cloaks.

Teleport friendly dungeon means most dungeons which are ran are nearby somewhere you can teleport. Since most characters UMD dump, spot wiz/ sorc, or have a pocket mage, teleporting is extremely common. When you can use the mass teleport spell/scroll, you just type Teleport: Stoneland Canyon for instance, and you and your party will be teleporting right by the entrance to Ogre Lord's.

I can't remember the last time I actually had to backtrack through a dungeon after completing it. It's always been teleport, log back into main server, or now use the given widget to bring yourself to Arabel. Most of the RP in dungeons seems to be "they usually do ____, be careful", creative battlecries, brief strategies before entering the dungeon or before boss fights, but it's rarely about placeables within dungeons, creating ideas about what's actually in the dungeon aesthetically instead of focusing on the "boss" character.

"These wall drawings seem strange and out of place for an Orc cave. I wonder if there's any significance to them." *makes quest request*

It's mostly, *walks passed drawings* "Careful, there's usually a trap here".

But more often, *group runs through trap, because they know it won't kill, runs into next spawn, and the next, and the next, and the next* "Phew" *pants*. "Shit loot." *Mass teleport*

[Mystic Warden]

If I may chime in as a newbie to the server:

I think the problem is the upside-down pyramid problem (similar which the pension systems facing nowadays in the first world). In the 3ed DMG book there is a city generator which builds up a normal pyramid: for each class you roll out the highest lvl NPC, than you get two NPCs on half that lvl, four others once more half of that, etc. This results in what we normally expect from a quasi-reality: many underdogs, less experts and a few masters in each given trade/class.

However on the server we have a lot of 10+, even 16+ lvl PCs, but the low-and mid-range (1-10 lvl) is mostly missing. Those are mainly filled with NPCs, and to interact with an NPC on a regular level needs huge DM resources in time and energy which we can't reasonably expect from the DMs. This also makes it difficult for new characters to kinda connect to other PCs. From pure game mechanics/power/lvl point of view it is hard to join up in a balanced party, as described earlier. From social/cultural/RP point of view the high levels already established themselves as leaders, moved onto the higher social circles and it is hard to ICly beliveably integrate a new character into these directly. Why would an arch-mage took interest in a beginner 3rd lvl wizard? Of course the typical master-apprentice relationship is good, but could get cliche fast, too. As well as being relatives to each other, as explanation.

An other problem is when the majority of characters are high/epic level, that DMs need to come up with "doom of the entire world" threats more often than it could be reasonably happen. This was also mentioned earlier, it breaks immersion, etc.

To solve this problem on a purely theoretical level (I know it is not realistic to expect from the players, this is just thinking loudly) the level cap should be re-thought. The expectation to get a high-level character approved to pass a level cap could be the creation and active usage of some lower-level characters. For example in order to pass onto epic level with one char the player should have one other character in the 10-20 lvl range, and two between new and 10th level. And these characters should be used and logged on regulary. Again, I know it is not a realistic expectation, but maybe gets the creative juices flowing, so to speak, to solve this problem.

For those who did not play on Escape from Underdark here is how they tackled this issue: when a PC died and respawned, he lost 1/3rd of his total XP. Getting raised ment the loss of 1/6th XP, resurrected 1/9th XP. On that server a lvl 7 or 8 PC was considered powerful, rare and top tier, as dying usually meant loosing 2 levels and the combat areas available over the 4th level were hard. (So raise dead and resurrection was quite rare anyway.) This kept the PC base close to each other in terms of lvl, as there were beginner dungeons and some fed-ex quests to bring you up to lvl 4, but afterwards the PCs fluctuated between being 5-8th lvl. Of course the backside of it was that many deaths were the direct result of lags which are not fair to the players and DMs were not watching over each mission area all the time to remedy these situations. Again, this might not have relevance for us, just an eye-opener.

Anyway, these are my 0.2 cents only, consider them musing loudly.

*scurries back to her newbie hole*

[SOC_Tessa]

I've had similar qualms, even just taking levels out of the equation. In fact, I've been more discouraged when I hit higher levels and feel my characters aren't going anywhere. By 16, I've felt I've more or less journeyed through the prime of my character's story, which is to say the extent of where self-driven motivated storylines still work. Past that level, it just feels reality is shattered and the social roleplay that makes up the meat of the character's experiences is hollow and unfitting to a character of that power.



I can't speak from any server epic experience, but I can mirror sentinments from MegaSwampertSoHype and mysticwarden above. I've found the "established" characters become the "go to" for the areas of expertise they cover. Not saying that none of it is warranted or earned, but it gives the two-fold problem of making them both a deus ex machina and a creativity block.



If Character X governs this physical area or area of expertise (perhaps due to event Y from a plot 3 years ago), they automatically get claim on events for anything happening there for IC reasons. That's expected and only fair to the player of Character X. But when their field of specialty is someone new Character Y pursues, they end up playing permanent second fiddle for a lengthy time, if not the lifespans of the two characters. There's little IC reason to ever approach Character Y for a solution to a problem in that field when Character X could flex their mighty epic skills and handle it much easier.



It's like joining an ongoing campaign game and you pull out your freshly minted wizard with hopeful ambitions and then Ed Greenwood sits next to you and pulls out a character sheet for Elminster. You can roleplay the hell out of your wizard and make him interesting in all sorts of ways, but whenever the shit hits the fan, everyone turns to Elminster to save the day. You're forced into a supporting role whenever both characters are around.



It sometimes feels like there are limited roles to fill and a lot of them are just plain occupied at times.



Edit: I also feel like the majority of DM events I've taken part of lacked a core concept of shared player spotlight. It's alright for a single PC to take charge, but sometimes they go full tilt and the rest of the party becomes window dressing. Again, this is fine for quests that are for personal character development, but pick-ups or even planned events sometimes only really circle around a small handful of the group and the others are simply around for the ride. This doesn't mean pointing fingers at DMs, as managing the spotlight and sharing time is something players should be cognizant of when grouping as well.

[trylobyte]

Tessa really hit the core of it, at least from my perspective. I'll put it into my own terms a bit.  This may turn into a 'Being epic sucks' post halfway through and I apologize for that.

My main is level 30. One of two active max-level characters on the server. And Tessa is firmly correct when she says that the best parts of that 30 levels occurred from about levels 9 to 19. Past that, my character had already 'seen it all' so to speak, and most of the quests I remember best and enjoyed most happened before she reached level 20.  She was right in the sweet spot where she was effective and powerful without being overwhelming.  She was also often in groups about her own level range, so everybody had something to contribute.  Even the lower levels, who might not have been on the front lines but could indeed find things to do by protecting the rear, drawing aggro off the spellcasters, or otherwise doing their thing without drawing the attention of the big scary thing of the week.  Some of my best achievements in quests were done at levels 9-12 and weren't done by combat but by guile and cunning.  And I miss those days a little.  Right now my character's super-high level actually restricts her even more than being low level would - I have to bow out of quests or events I should realistically be interested in because my character is too powerful.

At level 30 she's -the- go-to problem solver when it comes to magical affairs because as an epic mage there's little she can't immediately stomp into the ground, which makes her impossible to use well in combat quests - Either the rest of the group gets massacred so she can have a challenge or she can steamroll anything thrown at her. I often find myself deliberately excluding myself from plots because of this. It's also easy for higher levels, especially epics, to overshadow everyone else, even fellow epics, without even trying if they decide to truly act like the quasi-deific badasses they've become. Consider the Waymoot siege, where Aelie (my epic sorceress) and Aesa (an epic fighter) were asked to 'provide a distraction' by a group of 6-7 adventurers, several of them epic themselves, looking to infiltrate a temple where the orcs were sacrificing townsfolk.  They proceeded to do this by attacking the entire orcish army themselves.  Not only did they not die, but they caused so much mayhem that the Purple Dragons exploited it to launch their own attack and finally smash the orcish force, breaking the siege and routing them.  I didn't realize it until much later, but once it hit that point, in the grand scheme of things, nothing the rest of the party did mattered.  They accomplished their objectives, but that's not the part people remember.  People remember the besieging orcs getting blindsided by the vicious heavily-warded greatsword-swinging maniac who never dies and her invisible Hell-bombing dragon-summoning finger-lasering friend.  And this is a problem a lot of new players risk encountering since, as the lower-levels, they're often not the ones that can do the big flashy bits.

The flip side of this is that because she is so powerful she doesn't really make friends among the newer players or characters well.  If I go adventuring with them to a dungeon their level it's not unusual for them to get no XP at all because of the level banding, which kills that idea faster than a Hellball on a sewer rat, and I'm not going to ruin a quest or DM event by showing up while knowing I'm twice everyone else's level.  And it's remarkably hard to make friends solely through generic social RP.  You gotta get out and do stuff with them!  Except I kinda can't.  Of course my habit of zoning out when there's nothng going on doesn't help either, but...

Tessa's also right in that certain areas are the 'domains' of various older characters.  Magical stuff inevitably hits Aelie, Logarti, or Elzevir.  Anything in the King's Forest involves Piyale.  Thayan business goes through Marziima.  The Purple Dragons are -still- heavily associated with Victoria and Zander.  Want to be a mage?  Join the Violet Flame, domain of Xanetia, Requiem, and sometimes Aelie.  Are you an elfy elf?  Off to Velethuil where you'll meet Anivaro, or hang around with the Ravenshadows for a less traditional elfy experience.  Want to be a druid?  Let me introduce you to Archdruid Iyanna.  Want to establish a mercenary group?  Aesa's got one going already.  This becomes problematic for new players who want to 'do their own thing' only to find someone's already done that and there's a 'No Vacancy' sign over that particular door, and it can become a problem for everybody when the people associated with a faction, activity, or field lose interest or disappear from the game for a while.  If they come back they're going to try to get their old spot back (the PDs and the Violet Flame especially suffered from this) which leads to political infighting and a command crisis because nobody's quite sure who's in charge and it generally winds up leaving both the new up and coming leader and the old guard leader burned out on the whole issue, leaving them right back where they started.

As for DM quests, there's definitely been situations where a quest is very obviously centered around a PC or a group of PCs and anyone else who signs on is just that, an extra in a movie starring someone else.  I'm not talking about quest requests, which are obviously going to lean towards the requester, nor am I talking about situations where a certain PC or group of PCs 'take over' a quest by ICly asserting their leadership and authority.  I'm talking quests that, from outset to conclusion, have their spotlight focused entirely on one person or group and nothing can shake it for more than a few seconds at a time.  These can be very, very frustrating for new players to encounter because it makes them feel like they're not important or that their actions don't really matter.  Fortunately, these quests are in a minority at the moment, but there have been times when they were the majority of quests being run.  This is more something the admins need to keep an eye on than something the players can do anything about, but it's still an issue.

[Fire Wraith]

Jun 19, 2014 22:37:17 GMT -5 trylobyte said:

Right now my character's super-high level actually restricts her even more than being low level would - I have to bow out of quests or events I should realistically be interested in because my character is too powerful.

I've run into similar problems.  The way that I handle it, in part, is to not constantly have Eve projecting herself as an ultra superhero.  In some ways that's easier because it fits her character - she's more inclined to be quiet and low-key about what she's capable of, but some of that is just me OOCly adjusting and adapting.  She tends to focus on doing things that she's not good at, in order to make sure she's not standing out too greatly.

That's only one way though - another is to just create another character.  None of these are going to necessarily work for everyone though (I've tried the latter, and I have trouble getting into those PCs).

At level 30 she's -the- go-to problem solver when it comes to magical affairs because as an epic mage there's little she can't immediately stomp into the ground, which makes her impossible to use well in combat quests...

Honestly, I'd suggest trying to add a little dramatic pacing.  What I mean by this is... don't jump straight to 11.  Even in the FR novels, Elminster doesn't just start busting out hellballs when Zhent Agents start nosing around.  It's much the same way that in any TV show/superhero comic/etc, any hero with a super unbeatable move isn't going around tossing that against every mook that comes along.  What's the IC rationale for this?  Well, basically it's to play like something truly horrible and nasty could be lurking in wait for you to use up your serious firepower.  Elminster wasn't going to waste all his best spells, not when Manshoon or the Shadovar might be waiting for a chance to catch him with his best powers spent.

It also means everyone else has a chance to solve the lesser problems - which is another Elminster-y type thing.

This becomes problematic for new players who want to 'do their own thing' only to find someone's already done that and there's a 'No Vacancy' sign over that particular door, and it can become a problem for everybody when the people associated with a faction, activity, or field lose interest or disappear from the game for a while.

No one has a monopoly on any of this.  We've never made people wait for old players that are semi-active, or completely inactive.  Some of the ones you've named haven't been on in several months or longer.  The Admins and Staff are not stopping you from taking charge of those factions/themes/areas.  Yes, if someone's still around, we'll expect them to step up and engage with you, and let you get involved, but if they don't, the rules clearly state you're free to do it your own way.  Nobody gets to sit on a permanent veto over who can do a certain type of roleplay.

If they come back they're going to try to get their old spot back (the PDs and the Violet Flame especially suffered from this) which leads to political infighting and a command crisis because nobody's quite sure who's in charge and it generally winds up leaving both the new up and coming leader and the old guard leader burned out on the whole issue, leaving them right back where they started.

If they suddenly come back and complain, well, tough sh*t.  If people disappear, they don't get to magically have "dibs" on all their old positions and plots.  We try to be accomodating, as best we can, but that's the way it is.  And if they don't like that, I will quite happily explain it to them in as blunt terms as necessary to get the point across.

If you're worried that someone will come back and try to reclaim leadership of an inactive faction, feel free to ask me, and I'll back you up.

As for DM quests, there's definitely been situations where a quest is very obviously centered around a PC or a group of PCs and anyone else who signs on is just that, an extra in a movie starring someone else.  I'm not talking about quest requests, which are obviously going to lean towards the requester, nor am I talking about situations where a certain PC or group of PCs 'take over' a quest by ICly asserting their leadership and authority.  I'm talking quests that, from outset to conclusion, have their spotlight focused entirely on one person or group and nothing can shake it for more than a few seconds at a time.  These can be very, very frustrating for new players to encounter because it makes them feel like they're not important or that their actions don't really matter.  Fortunately, these quests are in a minority at the moment, but there have been times when they were the majority of quests being run.  This is more something the admins need to keep an eye on than something the players can do anything about, but it's still an issue.

It certainly is/can be.  We want everyone to have a chance to take a turn in the spotlight.  We don't want to say "no personal quests/storylines", because these are very important to people, and to being able to effectively play their character's storyline.  We do want others to be able to help take part, though (albeit not as complete extras, ideally), and we also don't want it to be the sort of thing where everything revolves around characters A, B, or C, and nobody else.  I consciously try to not take too active a role with Eve, partly because I want to push others towards the spotlight.

[Fire Wraith]

Jun 19, 2014 7:25:51 GMT -5 Mystic Warden said:

If I may chime in as a newbie to the server:

Of course.  Everyone was new here at one point or another, and new members are part of the community just as much as any of us that have been around for years.

An other problem is when the majority of characters are high/epic level, that DMs need to come up with "doom of the entire world" threats more often than it could be reasonably happen. This was also mentioned earlier, it breaks immersion, etc.

That's certainly true to a point, though what I find most interesting/challenging are the plots that you simply can't "epic" your way through.  There's a lot of problems in the world that can't simply be solved by throwing money/magic/firepower at it.  Some of this is just a storytelling challenge though.

To solve this problem on a purely theoretical level (I know it is not realistic to expect from the players, this is just thinking loudly) the level cap should be re-thought. The expectation to get a high-level character approved to pass a level cap could be the creation and active usage of some lower-level characters. For example in order to pass onto epic level with one char the player should have one other character in the 10-20 lvl range, and two between new and 10th level. And these characters should be used and logged on regulary. Again, I know it is not a realistic expectation, but maybe gets the creative juices flowing, so to speak, to solve this problem.

There are a number of things I might try (or want to try differently) if we started over, but given where we are in the lifecycle of NWN and such I don't think it's really feasible for us to radically alter things.  I also can't force people to do things - I can encourage, but I can't force.  I do hope that a lot of new characters will start up once we have the new classes from the hak update (which is coming when Vincent's schedule allows).

Of course, people can always do what I did, and invent a reason that their epic character winds up losing multiple levels... but that's another story.

[Mystic Warden]

Just some musings on the epic level characters: I think their main function is to keep the enemy epic PCs/NPCs/monsters at bay (sometimes by their mere presence, sometimes more actively). And they inevitably will get powerful enemies during their rise to epic level and beyond. Characters of such power keep a close eye on each other all the time, looking for weakness. They balance each other out and they HAVE TO balance each other out, otherwise the other side uses the opportunity and strikes. It is similar on many aspects to the Cold War and the arm's race the than two superpower drove each other into. Or two grappler of equal skill and strenght, locked into a mutual lock. If anyone yields just for a moment...

That is the reason why epic level characters shouldn't jump into a battle the way trylobyte described happened. If I were an epic-level enemy of that two characters I would launch an attack on them just as they finished their job and they are weakened, hurt, used up spells, magic items, abilities, etc. Of course the epic level characters are aware of this, therefore they delegate these missions to other (lower level) characters, creating lot of adventuring opportunities for those minions/lackeys/apprentices/minor heroes. Epic level characters take direct action only when an enemy epic level character takes direct action. Even than, their main function on the battlefield is to counter their epic opponent while their less-powerful allies scurry along, combatting each other, trying to accomplish their missions. Typical movie cliche: "Leave him to me to handle, you go forward to rescue the girl...". But it works.

The situation becomes even more complicated (and funny) when it is not a two-poled situation, like "we goods vs. them evils", but there are 3, 4, 5 or even more different factions around with different agendas, goals, potentials for allying and betraying, etc. When an epic level character (or characters) have to watch multiple potential angles of attack against them they should be even more careful about taking direct action and exposing themselves. Their lives become even more of one of constant vigil, gathering information, building up power, and saving their strenght, keeping themselves ready all the time. If their enemy shows a weakness, but they do not have the strenght to muster to use the opportunity than it can go and next time it could be opposite way. They become more of tacticians and chessmasters, moving and directing their pawns and allies and only taking active role when absolute neccessary. Based on the background descriped for Forgotten Realms this is the exact situation we are having there.

Independent, non-allied epic characters can't escape this game, either. The other factions will try to recruit them to bolster their power, or eliminate them so they don't bolster their enemies' power. Every powerful character become the victim of his own power sooner or later, without exception.

I think if these aspects would be introduced to the server the players of epic level characters could feel themselves more useful. Admittedly this means more forum RP, with some parts taking place in-engine, like sending the lower lvl chars to missions, than later debriefing, handling an important negotiation with a potential epic level ally, etc. But nevertheless active adventuring is much less for epic level characters as their involvement becomes more social, working from the backgrounds. I do not think anything could be done against this.

To counter this somewhat, and keep it fun to play the epics they could have their special epic level events when they directly can foil some actions and machinations of the other epic level NPCs out there and their direct contributions are needed. These would not be the "world's end of the week" type of adventures, as it was written earlier that would be stupid. Also, countering the actions of an epic enemy doesn't exclusively mean to kill him. These opponents are smart and they know when to cut their losses and run to lick their wounds or to write down their just foiled plot as unseccessful investment. Age is usually not a problem for an epic lvl character, he can wait. This helps to avoid an other potentially silly situation, namely the "never-heard-before-new-but-very-epic-and-dangerous-enemy-of-the-week". A recurring, old enemy with a known background, style, and attitude is much more satisfying experience to play and scheme against.

I am sorry if I stated already well-known things, I can't resist to be a smartass many times. But I played and DMed PnP DnD for 10+ years and I thought maybe these can help to find a solution. If the players of epic lvl characters can have fun that way they might bring in new, smaller level characters and connect them to their epic other. Playing a loyal leutenant of your own epic character can bring the player as close the plots of his epic lvl char as possible with the other one.

[Mystic Warden]

Jun 20, 2014 1:08:16 GMT -5 Fire Wraith said:

There are a number of things I might try (or want to try differently) if we started over, but given where we are in the lifecycle of NWN and such I don't think it's really feasible for us to radically alter things.  I also can't force people to do things - I can encourage, but I can't force.  I do hope that a lot of new characters will start up once we have the new classes from the hak update (which is coming when Vincent's schedule allows).

I agree with what you wrote, a comment on this one above: if based on my previous post the epic PCs will be more forum RP oriented in their activities that frees up time for the player to bring other, new characters onto the server. Forum RP is easier to do timewise and connection wise. (Can be done from school, workplace, etc.) Being in NWN is usually more tricky and that time than could be mostly spent with the new, lower lvl characters.