Some (Relatively) Brief Thoughts From an Ex-New Player

[trylobyte]

I think what RedMage is getting at is that the 'people play what they have fun playing' often do so as a collective group, and unless you have a character that can tie into that group they tend to not try to involve you.  After all, they're having fun in their group, why would they invite other people that may ruin the group dynamic or go against its roleplay?  That'd ruin their fun.  When one's character is outside this group they get minimal roleplay with them.  If a character is outside ALL the groups (as new players often are) they pretty much get no roleplay period.  This also happens to long-term players whose groups and friends have mostly left - Since most of the players already know what that old character is like they can determine whether or not their new character would have fun interacting with the other, without ever having to actually do so.  Or if that older character would fit in their group or not.  It's metagaming sure, but it's also just common sense.  You sometimes need to try to shoehorn yourself into a group, which doesn't work half as often as it just annoys people.

To extend your analogy, imagine a baseball team that really enjoys playing baseball together because they're all friends already and are very comfortable with each other.  They're not going to be very likely to include some random kid they don't know, not as likely as a random group of kids would be at least.  They already know they have fun in their group.  A random element is a risk to the fun they know they'll have.

[Fire Wraith]

I think we've already established that people are generally welcoming if you want to join in what they're doing.  What they're not necessarily comfortable with is someone else expecting them to alter the group's established norms in order to fit what the newcomer expects, rather than the other way around.  And I can't really say that's an unfair expectation - who should have to change, the one or the many?

The point I'm getting at, is this sort of example:

-Six people want to play Elves, and have been playing Elves.

-One person wants to play a Zhentarim Priest of Bane.

A) Is it really a surprise that there's not going to be much involvement for that guy?
B) Yes, he feels left out and annoyed. What do you expect me to do about it?

I try to help everyone to have fun, but at some point, there's only so much I can do, and I start to get tired of hearing the same complaints over and over again, when I have to keep responding the same way.  You can:

A) Adjust your roleplay and try to find compromises so that you fit in with a larger group, to whatever degree you find fun.
B) Try and make things more interesting for others to play the kind of characters that fit with the group you have in mind.

I will gladly try to help with either of these things, to the extent I can.  I will point out opportunities, and like-minded players and ideas.  If my characters fit with your concept, I will go out of my way to try and become involved with them.  I will try to encourage DMs to run things for you.  If you can give me sufficient inspiration I might even be able to come up with stuff to run, myself. 

What I don't want people to do:

A) Bitch incessantly about how everyone else is a bunch of cliquish fucks because they don't play what you want, or won't tolerate your evil/good/lawful/chaotic/rude/obnoxious/antisocial/etc character.
B) Expect DMs/Admins/Fire Wraith/etc to ruin other peoples' fun by telling them they can't play with their friends.

[The Red Mage]

I just don't agree, and that's OK. Even children's shows and cartoons successfully assimilate non common people together in a story. It shouldn't be only segregation or too bad, deal with it. And it shouldn't be so personal. This server is a living organism, and you can't dictate everything that happens, especially social issues. It's up to the players, especially the established veterans to invite newer players, even if they don't  fit their groups mold, to expand story telling and their own characters. They are the more experienced here, and they should be able to shoulder more work more skillfully.

Right now, it's just avoid those you know oocly aren't a perfect match of interest for your group, and that's not OK. I'm guilty of this as well, and it's something  we can all be more cognizant of.

[Fire Wraith]

As I've been saying repeatedly - most people are pretty good at trying to involve new people.  But there's only so much you can ask them to change to accommodate before it becomes unreasonable.

[enarian123]

Honestly, if you want to play with other people, the MAKE IT WORK.   I understand everyone has their own PC, and your right to play them as you feel fits them best.   But this is the internet.   And if you refuse to give any ground to make it work with people, don't expect to go far.   I'm not saying you can't stick to your guns, or exclude things your PC doesn't agree with ic.   But, you can make a point without being insulting, you can listen to a insult without taking it the worse way possible, you can let go of petty things and grudges and you can understand this is a Co op server where the goal is to work with others in order to move plots along.  

Yes you can be evil, work in the backround and add to our server, no you'll never become a dark god.   No morally grey people are not good people, nore are they evil people.   FR has good, and evil.   You are not required to be one or the other, but that balance effects all things.    I personaly play a CG ranger.   I've in the last years toned down my hard line "me vs you" mindset, and guess what I have more fun.   I look for a reason to work with people, rather then look for a reason not to.  Yes there are people my PC doesn't want to work with.  And I make sure if I do anyway I RP that fact, but on a ooc note I want everyone involved as much as possible.    

We have developed a style here where it's the in/out crowd and we're hoarding events and pointing fingers and getting mad over dm attention being unbalanced.   I wonder what it would be like if like I stated before, everyone here on a ooc note looked for a reason to include, rather then exclude people.  It's not a race, there is no prize for first place here.    

[Arya]

One thing to keep in mind...

If a character is ICly very nasty toward other people, there are consequences.  People will not want to deal with the character, ICly.  But it is all in-character.  This has come up a few times when I played on the server.  It is just how it goes.

Sincerely,
Arya

[trylobyte]

Jun 25, 2014 22:13:42 GMT -5 enarian123 said:

Honestly, if you want to play with other people, the MAKE IT WORK.   I understand everyone has their own PC, and your right to play them as you feel fits them best.   But this is the internet.   And if you refuse to give any ground to make it work with people, don't expect to go far.   I'm not saying you can't stick to your guns, or exclude things your PC doesn't agree with ic.   But, you can make a point without being insulting, you can listen to a insult without taking it the worse way possible, you can let go of petty things and grudges and you can understand this is a Co op server where the goal is to work with others in order to move plots along.  

Yes you can be evil, work in the backround and add to our server, no you'll never become a dark god.   No morally grey people are not good people, nore are they evil people.   FR has good, and evil.   You are not required to be one or the other, but that balance effects all things.    I personaly play a CG ranger.   I've in the last years toned down my hard line "me vs you" mindset, and guess what I have more fun.   I look for a reason to work with people, rather then look for a reason not to.  Yes there are people my PC doesn't want to work with.  And I make sure if I do anyway I RP that fact, but on a ooc note I want everyone involved as much as possible.    

We have developed a style here where it's the in/out crowd and we're hoarding events and pointing fingers and getting mad over dm attention being unbalanced.   I wonder what it would be like if like I stated before, everyone here on a ooc note looked for a reason to include, rather then exclude people.  It's not a race, there is no prize for first place here.    

Except there is a prize for 'first place' so to speak.  There are several.  Whether that prize is more XP, good items, or simply lots of quests, there are definite advantages to being in a group whether it be IC or OOC.  Put simply, friends do things for friends, whether that be running gnolls a bunch of times to get that rare Tier 5 item one person needs, banding together to grab a DM for a quest that otherwise wouldn't have enough interest, providing roleplay connections and avenues that wouldn't exist between non-groupmates, or in extreme cases, DMs spoon-feeding friends a large number of high-level quests or, in one noteworthy incident from a while ago, straight up giving friends powerful and borderline-illegal items.  Having seen all these things and more, and the fallout or lack thereof from them, I'm very leery of groups, especially ones that either appear too insular or get a lot of DM attention.  Adding to this, groups can sometimes get large enough that they don't really need any more members, in which case you get an 'inner circle' and a bunch of vaguely associated hangers-on., and only the inner circle reaps the benefits.

Call me paranoid (because I am) but the fact is this stuff happens more frequently than a lot of people like to admit.

[The Red Mage]

And it's not that we're demanding it be "fixed". I brought this up originally in this thread because of how often I heard it be complained about to me before new players left the server.

[Arya]

So, Trylo.

I see a list of concerns.  My question is...

What is your proposed solution?  

I know for myself, I have a very low tolerance for habitually passive-aggressive behaviour and constantly negative people.  So most of the time, I have a very hard time including players who fit in those categories.  I can work with people, but only to the extent people show appreciation and are not always negative.  Like I have told a number of players: I would prefer a positive player with mediocre RP ability over a good RPer who does nothing but spew out nasty things about others and their "lack" of skill. And said people only having conversations based on putting other players down behind their backs.  Mediocre RP can be fixed, attitudes are harder to fix.  Sure at times I am just one person and cannot include -everyone,- but I know I deliberately avoid  people who are very negative as players.

Most staff I have conversed with find it the most draining to do quests for players who are constantly negative - especially when they make the staff members feel that they can never do enough for that person. And really, they are not being paid to do anything. For all we know, they have to deal with a person like that in their job on a regular basis. So, why should they have to deal with that in a place that is meant to be relaxing for them? Speaking as a former staff member who wants to potentially return to staff in the near future, I know I certainly have a hard time doing events for such people.  

It is common sense, really.  If the person is unable to show respect toward other players, it is no wonder they are not having respect in return. And this can sometimes translate toward people not wanting to include others because of player attitudes.

I am not going to disagree with the folks saying groups have their consequences.  For they do.  Even if unintentional (in a lot of cases, it is unintentional).  But, it is not a new thing and I think most people who succeed with dealing with it the best do it by having a generally positive attitude, think of ways to work with multiple people (and sometimes, those groups, even if to play some healthy IC conflict), and avoid the whole bashing-other-players all the time.  They find ways to fit with the setting, and take advantage of the times they can change the setting - not make the setting fit their ways of doing things (lest snarkiness and rage follow).  If they really do not enjoy the server so much to where they can only be negative all the time as players, they play less or flatout move on.  And that is just how it has to go sometimes.  It might only be a small percentage of players, but a small percentage of NWN players may not - no, do not, belong on CD.  They might, however, belong on another server.

~Arya

Postscript: cleaned this up a bit.  My brain can sometimes go faster than my fingers. >.>

[trylobyte]

Sorry if I come across as passive-aggressive, it's just how I sound when I'm complaining about something - I'm an ex-moderator (for 7-8 years) so I was told to never name and shame, so I'm not going to bring up specifics in a public discussion unless I know nobody cares anymore.  This really isn't directed at any specific group right now anyway (While your group has a lot of folks involved with it, it's in no means non-inclusive) but more at the fact it tends to keep happening.  It's not unusual to see half a dozen players make new characters to 'fit in' with these groups, too - The biggest example of this in recent memory was the 9-man dwarf pack back when the dwarves were the only group that got quests (which was based on the OOC friendship between the dwarves' leader and the DM running those quests, making this a double example).  When the quests stopped coming, the dwarves all vanished again.  Stonehaven is another recent example - I think Logarti is the only active person that was associated with that project despite the fact Stonehaven was, during its peak, more important than the main plot to most of the server and not being associated with it meant you'd never see a DM.  Then there are OOC groups as well, people that always seem to have characters associated with each other or who keep backing each other up - I'm sure most senior players remember the 'Unholy Trinity' of DMs that almost killed the server a while ago because they let their OOC friendship conquer any sense of duty they felt to the server as a whole.  Unless you were willing to suck up to them you got no DM attention at all while they and their favored were showered in items and XP on a twice-weekly basis.  The OOC groups aren't often much of a problem unless, again, they happen to be the only ones doing anything at the moment.

I'll use an example from another server since nobody here would get offended by that.  Actually happened just last night.  A group of people were getting ready to go off and explore some dungeons when I encountered them on one of my characters.  One of them mentioned this so my character asked to go, as you do.  The leader of the group promptly refused on the basis of not knowing my character - A reasonable claim admittedly, which my character acknowledged - but this left me locked out of any interaction on the server since everyone else online was in this group.  I had no choice but to turn around and log off because this group wouldn't accept me.  That's...  not a good feeling, and it doesn't make me want to want to log into that server.

What's a proposed solution?  To be honest, there isn't one for the larger issue of people clustering together.  That's something that's always going to happen since it's human nature, and isn't in and of itself a bad thing.  The most I can ask for is that groups be inclusive and inviting.  Let people into that inner circle after a while.  Invite people to go along with you, especially on quests that don't require secrecy.  This includes people you might not necessarily enjoy roleplaying with - They're never going to change their behavior if you never give them a chance to after all, and it might not be as hard as you think.  Some of us (like me!) aren't generally negative people, but we've gotten that way over the years because of chronic patterns of behavior (like the one I'm discussing, a big one for me).  It's tough to overcome that knee-jerk reaction for both parties, but putting some effort into it could yield good times down the road.

OOC groups are the ones that tend to be more dangerous, especially when a DM gets involved.  Admins need to keep an eye on these - If one person is running a disproportionately large number of quests for someone or some group, that needs to be watched.  Especially if items are being handed out, since this can easily lead to corruption on a grand scale that imbalances the server for months or years.  Not much players can do about these, but DMs and admins should be alert to this and willing to intervene at the first sign of it happening.

[Arya]

To clarify, it was not the forum post I was commenting on specifically when I made that statement about player attitudes, Trylo. :-) The part that was directed to you, I tried to make explicit.  I was just pointing out the times when I have avoided including people. I apologise if it came across as otherwise! I can see how it did!

Fortunately, I do not have too many examples of what or who I do not include, either.  


Sincerely,
Arya

[aceheart]

OOC groups that are tight can be a good source of entertainment for their members. They definately serve a purpose. On the other hand, if they're too exclusive, they end up being a dead weight in the sense that they aren't open to give and take with the rest of the population. Showing up with your buddies, so to speak, is a great way to turn an idea into reality, however. It just needs to open up eventually, otherwise it disappears sooner or later when its only source of life (a DM in the group of buddies) bows out for whatever reason.

So, there are pros and cons to this type of grouping behavior. It certainly applies to the new player scenario. It has become, it seems to me, more common in recent years that new players arrive in groups of two or three, with a set of RP goals and concepts they want to push. This is definately good, except that unless it opens up eventually, those small newcomer groups will find that they haven't made any allowance for meshing with others. Perhaps a DM will take interest, but this is as likely as it is not, and newcomers should not solely blame the DMs if it doesn't work out.

Speaking from personal experience, and I want to minimize that aspect so this doesn't become self-centered, it can be extremely difficult to try to enroll newcomers into existing stories and plans, especially when they come with their own. In this particular case I think the onus is more on the newcomers to try to mesh, perhaps by adopting some of the goals of those already present. Alternatly, both sides should make efforts to link up plans and goals in some reciprocal benefit scheme. This can be difficult too, but none of us, old or new, should be defined by a single thing. We should all have a few goals, some major, some minor, some we can go along with to help others in order to be helped later. This seems like something we should all strive for, because it is the mark of a well fleshed-out character concept.

[Ogre Time Yay]

Well... We could all just get along too... That's a good solution.
Exchange hugs, bake cookies together...
Bottle of wine? Hey, I'm down for that...



I think sometimes we all need to be reminded that not everyone is out to get us.
Everybody has a little something to contribute. Heard your character likes dancin', Hey! Show me those dance moves!
Wow... You're really kickin' it, that's fresh...

I drew you guys a picture:
((Nevermind, I need to re-download Photoshop and MS Paint isn't working.))
It's a picture of us all happy and together! Wow... That sure looks like a good time, don't ya think?

At the end of the day we can... Kick back and relax.
Talk about old times and get a laugh thinkin' about the good old days.
Come to a startling conclusion that... It doesn't have to end there.
I'll see you tomorrow, we'll pick up where we left off, you choose where we hunt next time.

Won't you be...
Won't you be!
Won't you be.... My neighbor.

[Balkoth]

Jun 18, 2014 9:54:24 GMT -5 daphne said:

But all those level 16 characters you see on the server took that long to develop.   Some characters, who may not even be epic level, have been played for years.  From a brutally honest standpoint, how would -you- feel if you played a character for that long, got to this 'server midpoint' and then saw new players joining and getting 'caught up' in two weeks?

This thread went way beyond my ability to keep up with, but this comment stuck out to me and I wanted to comment briefly on it:

I wouldn't care.

Even if they hit level 16 in two weeks, they'd still lack a lot of special gear I'd possess and they'd still wouldn't know people IC and OOC like I do.  In fact, I'd generally be happy because it's someone new to play with and new blood is always welcome.  I'm far more concerned with a pool of available players to do fun stuff with than trying to make sure I'm immensely stronger than new players.

I do get your point in general -- if someone was able to join the server and catch-up to to the most advanced players in the course of a day then that would potentially be aggravating.  But there's a huge difference between catching up in a day and being able to catch up to the *average* in a month or two.  And you're looking at 6-12 months to catch up solely in terms of level.  To put this in perspective: the original NWN campaign took about 40 hours.  Even something like Dragon Age was about 100 hours (that was an insanely long and aggravating campaign on Nightmare).  Those same 100 hours of the XP ticker would yield 7500 XP (25 days at 4 hours per day and 300 XP per day).  That's not even enough XP to go from level 15 to level 16 alone (7000 from kills, 7500 from ticket, still 500 short of 16).

You could play all the NWN campaigns (80ish hours total), all the Mass Effect campaigns (90ish hours total), and all the Dragon Age series (170ish hours total) to get 25,500 XP from the ticker.  From 15 to 16 takes 8000 so that leaves 17500.  From 14 to 15 takes 7000 so that leaves 10500.  From 13 to 14 takes 6000 so that leaves 4500.  From 12 to 13 takes 5000 so that leaves us with -500.  So going from level 12 to 16 is roughly the same length as NWN + ME + DA all combined -- and that's just to get to the *average* level of the server.  And that's not even counting the time to get UP to 12 either, which still probably clocks in around 4000 + 3000 + 2000 + 1000 - 1000 (figure 1000 XP from quests if you're lucky) = 9000 XP = 30 days of 300 XP each = another 120 hours.

Obviously if you're happy with that, great.  But a new player seeing that if he plays 75 minutes per day and instantly started at level 8 that it would take him an entire year to hit level 16 (not max level, not highest PC level, just an *average level*) is probably not going to be thrilled.  And even someone playing four hours per day (28 hours per week) would still take a good four months.

So have fun, best of luck, I appreciate the efforts of the people I ran into in-game, and I hope the server stays strong in the future...but I don't think it's for me.

[daphne]

I never played any video games sorry. I played Pen and paper D&D then NWN as a way to role play the game I loved. To me, the time it takes to get to average server level is very valuable because it allows me to explore the character, develop and change goals, and tell a story.

I like advancing in levels because it feels like I accomplished something. I don't get that nearly as much for Levels 3-8 because I can do that in two three days. A level that I worked for, that I did things more than just kill endless goblins - that meant a lot more to me.

And I feel perfectly fine role-playing with level 3 new characters and level 30 epics. I don't need everyone to be my level in order to feel like I can hang out with them or go find adventures. I have to really concur with what someone said a long while ago in this thread - "don't count the ticks".

But I am pretty old and pretty old style. And that is just my experience - everyone brings a different background to shared worlds like this. I am sorry that the server experience didn't match what you were looking for but I suspect you are right - you are looking for something that we just don't really have here. It's not about feeling stronger and superior to new players - it's about taking the time to develop stories and grow characters.