Remove OOC information

[dagesh]

It's the support of voluntary OOC information overall, methinks.

[trylobyte]

May 31, 2014 19:33:27 GMT -5 ClockworkMayhem said:

May 31, 2014 19:12:13 GMT -5 trylobyte said:

Will it affect my current RP?  No.  Will it affect future RP?  Yes.  Or more accurately, it will affect opportunities for future RP.  I'm gonna admit that yes, I metagame.  How?  I tend to flip through the character list and look for low-level mages, especially sorcerers, and make a note of their name.  That way when I'm on Aelie and I see them, I can strike up roleplay with them knowing there's already a common avenue of conversation.  Otherwise I might just ignore them and continue talking with someone else, or just observing.  But since I Know their level and class, I'm more willing to approach them knowing that there are mutual topics that can be discussed.  If there's an influx of new players lately, I will also sometimes look for people on very low-level characters (3-4) and send them a tell to greet them, say Hello, and offer assistance.

You can greet an unfamiliar player logging onto the server without metagaming. You can offer them assistance without metagaming. You know what was hardest for me starting here? Not finding dungeons. Not learning what was where - exploring the server helped me to get that. But what I needed help with were things like what certain widgets you were given were for, how to use certain commands that are apparently unique to this server (or at least not part of the game as it's packaged). THESE are things I couldn't find out through roleplay. Everything else, I could.

Also, checking for their level so you can take them under your wing? To me, that breaks the suspension of disbelief. Let's say you work a job that requires a very specific skill. You're very good at your job; you could even be considered an expert. Someone new is hired at your company. You've never met them before - they just moved to your town, you know nothing about them other than their name, because they told you that. Is your first assumption, "Well, they're new here, so they must be significantly less skilled than I am - I should teach them everything I know"? I should hope you wouldn't make that assumption, as that would put a big strain on your workplace relationships - particularly if said person was, say, an expert in your field who happened to have been given a better offer from your company than his or her last one. I feel that the "Oh, I've never seen this person in Arabel before, so they clearly must be some weakling newb" attitude (both in character and out) to be more than a little like this. It may not seem that big of a deal to some, but to me, it's a lot like using the CR to decide how your character would react to another player. Their description says they're well-muscled, intimidatingly tall, and very broody - the kind of person you'd hesitate to screw around with. Their CR says "effortless." So which do more players react to? From what I've seen, the CR. That's only one example, before anyone starts in on, "Well, my character would NEVER be intimidated by some muscled brute." That's all well and good, but it doesn't change the point.

You're making the assumption that I check levels and classes to 'take people under my wing.'  Nowhere did I say that - As a matter of fact, this is the sort of 'metagame paranoia' I was talking about.  I said I do it to spur conversation, so I know I can talk to this person and know what I can approach them about.    Not so I can take an apprentice.  If I were doing it to get apprentices I might have had more than one in three years, y'know?  And if someone new is hired in my company, I'll generally only go up and talk to them if they're in my department.  Otherwise, what are we gonna talk about?  And even if he is a recognized expert in his field I may offer to teach him some of the idiosyncrasies of my particular company if he seems like he needs the advice.  No two workplaces are the same, after all.

The 'I've never seen them here before so they must be new' attitude is justified when you're dealing with people that spend hours a day in the Square, because nine times out of ten they're going to be right.  That's not metagaming at all, that's in-character behavior - Sure, they could be some heroic legend arriving from overseas, but odds are they're some random mook that's come for treasure and fame just like everyone else.  A lot like your new cashier isn't likely to be a celebrity or an internationally-recognized mycologist, they're probably just some high school student looking for a paycheck.

The 'tall, dark, and broody' person is another example if maybe-IC maybe-OOC.  Fact is, I could spin your argument and say that you're trying to intimidate people without bothering to take the Intimidate skill.  There's more to being a scary bastard than being tall and having lots of spikes on your armor.  Want to scare people?  Roll Intimidate!  That's what it's there for.  Most people would ignore the results anyway (I have experience with this) but that's poor roleplaying, not metagaming.

[dagesh]

dAngel, if you desire to contribute, rant away.  I think we're having a great conversation here.

I'm not posting here in any personal way at all.  I have full respect for everyone posting here and in fact I have had fantastic RP with most everyone here (if not it's because my brain sucks at working). If I didn't like this server and the people who play here I would not be here.

Here's a question, would everyone here support a try at this for a time?  Another way to put that is, does anyone object to trying this out here on CD?

[trylobyte]

May 31, 2014 20:05:37 GMT -5 dagesh said:

Here's a question, would everyone here support a try at this for a time?  Another way to put that is, does anyone object to trying this out here on CD?

Having seen this before and found it mildly annoying without providing much of a gain in anything, I'd be opposed to it personally but if people want to try it I'm not going to make a scene.  I'm just going to tell them why they shouldn't. 

[Garage Trashcan]

May 31, 2014 20:05:37 GMT -5 dagesh said:

dAngel, if you desire to contribute, rant away.  I think we're having a great conversation here.

I'm not posting here in any personal way at all.  I have full respect for everyone posting here and in fact I have had fantastic RP with most everyone here (if not it's because my brain sucks at working). If I didn't like this server and the people who play here I would not be here.

Here's a question, would everyone here support a try at this for a time?  Another way to put that is, does anyone object to trying this out here on CD?

I wouldn't be opposed to trying it out. I just think that we might need to find some sort of middle-ground understanding from what seems to be the MedCore and the HardCore RP groups. If little things like this ruin immersion, I don't know how you can possible play tabletop D&D.

[ThayanKnight]

Like Trylo, I am opposed to it. Your theory about "trying it" assumes that we haven't and from what I've  read, most of us have and still have our respective opinions, so what is the desired result from the experiment?

[dagesh]

May 31, 2014 20:50:42 GMT -5 ThayanKnight said:

Like Trylo, I am opposed to it. Your theory about "trying it" assumes that we haven't and from what I've  read, most of us have and still have our respective opinions, so what is the desired result from the experiment?

So it's been tried on CD?

As an aside, if we're talking about other servers, I've been on others where hiding said information was not the initial case and when implemented, went swimmingly.

[ThayanKnight]

No, it seems most of us have played on servers where this is used.

[ClockworkMayhem]

May 31, 2014 20:02:57 GMT -5 trylobyte said:

The 'I've never seen them here before so they must be new' attitude is justified when you're dealing with people that spend hours a day in the Square, because nine times out of ten they're going to be right.  That's not metagaming at all, that's in-character behavior - Sure, they could be some heroic legend arriving from overseas, but odds are they're some random mook that's come for treasure and fame just like everyone else.  A lot like your new cashier isn't likely to be a celebrity or an internationally-recognized mycologist, they're probably just some high school student looking for a paycheck.

The 'tall, dark, and broody' person is another example if maybe-IC maybe-OOC.  Fact is, I could spin your argument and say that you're trying to intimidate people without bothering to take the Intimidate skill.  There's more to being a scary bastard than being tall and having lots of spikes on your armor.  Want to scare people?  Roll Intimidate!  That's what it's there for.  Most people would ignore the results anyway (I have experience with this) but that's poor roleplaying, not metagaming.

No, nowhere did you say that. But I also didn't say "make them your apprentice." But I have seen Aelie frequently take that attitude, apprentice or otherwise, if someone mentions they happen to use magic; even before she finds out that they are, in fact, very low-level practitioners. And I would argue quite vehemently that no - sitting around in a square for hours in a day does not in any way justify assuming someone new to the city is new to "adventuring" or anything else. That assumption is a bit metagamey, as far as I'm concerned. As for my example - yes, investment in the intimidate skill is important. But as for rolling that? I've seen higher level players fail to beat an intimidate roll and reply with narrative along the lines of, "would be intimidated, but has killed dragons, so is not."  So...no, I'm not "trying to intimidate people without taking the intimidate skill." But part of intimidation often is appearance, and ignoring that because you see their CR is metagaming, unconsciously or not.

[Arya]

So, I am all in support for the OOC Information removal bit, but I am starting to feel increasingly nervous about a few things in this thread...

1.  Some of the posts I have seen, quite truthfully, are coming across as increasingly condescending.  And some people are carrying this "I am a better NWN RPer than you" with some of the snide remarks that have been made regarding their pet peeves or dislikes about what said people see on this server.  I am starting to really dislike this.  Maybe I have just outgrown some of my 'standards.' 

2. There has been a lot of vicious posts about past experiences in this thread, that have just make me afraid to log in right now.  I have other things in the way of that for the time, but I would really like to log into the server and feel like we can get along (as much as possible). No one is perfect, and we have all made mistakes (myself included). And now it is feeling like some people's grudges are coming out in here.

3.  All this nervousness about potential metagaming, to the point where some are being very aggressive about this new system being implemented (or not implemented).   Just because I am in support for the measures being suggested does not mean I am going to be talking down on others who disagree with me.  Or would do the same on the reverse scenario.  

I will own to the fact I might be a little stressed out from some things happening IRL on vacation, but this thread's direction seems to be losing its productive streak.  And people are starting to get very, unnecessarily snarky or nose-up.

~Arya

[trylobyte]

May 31, 2014 21:24:08 GMT -5 ClockworkMayhem said:

May 31, 2014 20:02:57 GMT -5 trylobyte said:

The 'I've never seen them here before so they must be new' attitude is justified when you're dealing with people that spend hours a day in the Square, because nine times out of ten they're going to be right.  That's not metagaming at all, that's in-character behavior - Sure, they could be some heroic legend arriving from overseas, but odds are they're some random mook that's come for treasure and fame just like everyone else.  A lot like your new cashier isn't likely to be a celebrity or an internationally-recognized mycologist, they're probably just some high school student looking for a paycheck.

The 'tall, dark, and broody' person is another example if maybe-IC maybe-OOC.  Fact is, I could spin your argument and say that you're trying to intimidate people without bothering to take the Intimidate skill.  There's more to being a scary bastard than being tall and having lots of spikes on your armor.  Want to scare people?  Roll Intimidate!  That's what it's there for.  Most people would ignore the results anyway (I have experience with this) but that's poor roleplaying, not metagaming.

No, nowhere did you say that. But I also didn't say "make them your apprentice." But I have seen Aelie frequently take that attitude, apprentice or otherwise, if someone mentions they happen to use magic; even before she finds out that they are, in fact, very low-level practitioners. And I would argue quite vehemently that no - sitting around in a square for hours in a day does not in any way justify assuming someone new to the city is new to "adventuring" or anything else. That assumption is a bit metagamey, as far as I'm concerned. As for my example - yes, investment in the intimidate skill is important. But as for rolling that? I've seen higher level players fail to beat an intimidate roll and reply with narrative along the lines of, "would be intimidated, but has killed dragons, so is not."  So...no, I'm not "trying to intimidate people without taking the intimidate skill." But part of intimidation often is appearance, and ignoring that because you see their CR is metagaming, unconsciously or not.

A few points.

1)  That's just Aelie's general attitude.  There are IC reasons for it, and if you talk to her she might even explain it.  It's not something I do, it's something that Aelie does.

2)  Sitting in the Square all the time being a good measure of telling if someone's new?  Well, that's a bit like the five-year greeter in a Wal-Mart assuming a cashier they've never seen before is new - They work in the same general area all the time, so if he doesn't know who they are assuming they're new is a safe bet.  He might be wrong, but usually he's going to be right.  And yes, I have been wrong - Sometimes it's a quest character or a returning player from ages past, in which case it leads into conversation and roleplay.

3)  Looking intimidating is enough to threaten Joe Average, but these are adventurers.  Adventurers are generally pretty hardened to such things and will need that little extra talent to actually rattle them.  As for people not responding to intimidation attempts/rolls, that is, like I said, not metagaming but just bad roleplay.  CR often doesn't factor into it - I've regularly been harassed by players who were half my level or less, and it wasn't because they knew my CR - It was because they knew the server's PvP rules wouldn't allow me to kill them.  It was still metagaming but it wasn't the kind that this change would help with.

[ClockworkMayhem]

1. I'm not even going to address this.

2. Uh, this isn't Wal-mart. It's a city of over 30,000 people. I understand the scope of the server really can't accurately portray that, but if you can assume that there are crowds in the streets on most days, I don't think it's a stretch to not assume that if you don't know someone, they're a newcomer or amateur.

3. You've basically just stated that intimidate rolls are worthless, after telling me to use them, because a lot of players are, in your opinion, "bad roleplayers." And yes, you didn't say "a lot," but I've seen this behavior in quite a few people, so...a lot.

Personally, that really just sounds like excuses for metagaming, to me. Maybe to someone else, it doesn't; that's fine. But rather than argue all day and night about it, I'll simply stand by my point - visible CR leads to metagaming. I will not illustrate my point further with an example of this, because honestly, I'm not interested in causing drama with anyone by calling them out, but it has happened more than once to more than one of my characters, and to others that I've seen. Take that how you will.

[Garage Trashcan]

No one is arguing what is vs. what isn't metagaming. This was supposed to be about the pros vs. cons of removing CR, etc. CR is still important for PvE because, while all us old players know roughly the level-ranges of all the dungeons, new players don't. It can sometimes be frustrating to just go around exploring and die over and over simply because you didn't know that orc was actually a lot stronger than you thought it was. In PnP, a DM can give you a description of just how tough something looks, compared to you. DMs aren't constantly around to do that here, so if you're new and wandering alone, you can back off or say, "...I wonder if..." and then die horribly of your own accord, not because of lack of knowledge. If that's immersion-breaking for PvE...well, why are you examining the creature in the first place if you're not going to learn anything from it if it's not there?

No one is going to disagree that metagaming CR in player interactions happens. It does. The big debate going on right now is how common is it actually? As I and others have stated before, it seems like it's being blown out of proportion. What we're seeing here is a couple of isolated cases that should be easily dealt with (Talk with the player, figure out what's going on, if they're being a dick then who gives a shit anymore and move on with your fun and your life; or if it's more severe get the staff involved).

We were beating a dead horse the first time it was brought up. No new opinions are being shared here. You're not going to change anyone's mind. You can't force your standards upon someone else. If you could, the United States's political system wouldn't be so incredibly flawed. If the overall community feels that it should be more laid-back in regards to harmless metagaming, with the rare harmful metagaming as a side effect, then so be it. There's no reason to keep fighting it. The same thing goes the other way, if we decide to eliminate the possibility of ALL metagaming, then so be it. At that point you can decide enjoy yourself and get on, or move on to somewhere else if it bothers you that much.

I've played on and off here in part because of RL stuff coming up and in part because of decisions on the server, attitudes, playerbase, etc., and I've said the same thing about the XP system when people have complained (this is one example of something being slowly, drastically changed over the years to be more lenient). If you don't like it, if it bothers you THAT much and you can't get past it and just enjoy yourself, then why are you playing here? Calm down, relax, have fun, and stop caring. That's the best advice I can give. When you stop caring about what other people are doing and just focus on your own fun, it's so much easier to enjoy yourself. 

[Arya]

On point two...

There have been a few cases I had a character ask if someone was a locale or from elsewhere, but this was done to all level ranges.  I try to avoid the "new" question unless it becomes super obvious, but this slipping on occasion should not be harmful if the interactions lead to more roleplay.  Then again, my thoughts,  

Point three..

I would argue that everyone reacts to intimidation differently, but it is not a useless skill.  One might outright cower, others might glare and plot to murder the person later, but walk away.  And so forth.  But I also can understand why others would feel annoyed if someone completely ignores Intimidate.  As it is, people with the skill have to take into account character levels in the game mechanics anyway (if D&D PnP rules apply, if I am not mistaken).  So, in truth, there is a fair counter balance that takes character level into account.  

This has been a point I have disagreed with the administration on regarding social RP skills in CvC situations.  I find it unfortunate that they are ruled as meaningless in such scenarios.  While I do not want this to turn into 'rollplay' server myself, I would like to be able to use social RP skill rolls in some interactions - especially if they actually help counter the potential metagaming people worry about (for both sides).  DMs also cannot always spread love around immediately, so more and more, people are needing to engage in social-oriented situations for roleplay.

Granted, I speak as someone who has a rogue who strongly relies on social skills, since she is a social rogue of sort.  She is pretty useless in CvC situations without them.  (One reason I strongly dislike combative CvC/PvP. I dislike powerbuilding and how it can often be very encouraged via some dungeons.) 

~Arya

[Fire Wraith]

Okay - before this gets out of hand and people get too heated arguing it...


1) Overall, we're going to continue trying to look at ways to minimize superfluous OOC information.  At the same time, we can't ever make it completely impossible for anyone to metagame before the fact, and we will continue to do our best to mitigate any instances we become aware of when it does intrude in a negative way.

2) That said, we do try and minimize that sort of information where it's feasible - even if an astute player may well be able to know what's up OOCly, anyway.


My current thoughts...

A) I'm inclined to think that the effect list can be removed from the descriptions, as I really don't see it come up terribly often in normal play, but could have outsized repercussions for a low level character of a strange race.

B) As I stated before, I'm less bothered by overall CR than I am with the login list.  CR doesn't really tell you anything other than "This person is probably higher level/lower level/roughly the same".  Whether this is OOC, IC, or a mix, is arguable - in some cases it may be, in some cases maybe not.  I tend to think it's fairly obvious most of the time (80%+) when dealing with those skilled in these sorts of professions.  You wouldn't know exactly, but you could probably tell a veteran from a rookie, etc.

C) As Vincent said, removing the login list levels is going to be tricky.  I think once we move to using nwncx for logins, that it will be able to clear that out, though I don't know for certain.