Remove OOC information

[daphne]

A few points.

1.  Everyone meta games.  It is basic to human Nature. Even if it is limited to simply lookin at what gamespyid is playing a character it ends up influencing us. And if you play on the server much it is pretty easy to tell approximately what  level a PC is.

2.  No matter what is done to mask the game mechanics some people will figure out your character is evil or a vampire or were-penguin. It always happens. And as a result of this there will be some players that will not want to play with your character. Why not?  Because they feel they won't enjoy it. Maybe they are wrong. Maybe they are losing out on some stuff. But in the end it is their time, their fun, and their choice.

3.  Hiding the classes when logging in makes sense to me As it serves no real in game purpose that I can see. Parties get made up of huge level differentials and it doesn't sem to spoil people's fun  

4.  The CRs are kind of a joke anyway. My level 16 mystic theurge is not going to challenge -any- fighter to a duel no matter what level they are. (I actuality can't stand PvP but that is a separate issue). When it comes to monsters it is often not very reliable as a guide. Same with Pcs. Items and buffs make a Huge difference. Most characters in their teens effectively fight 3-5 levels above what is on the sheet due to that factor. So I could see getting rid on this too.

Hope I didn't offend anyone. And this was player daphne not dm daphne.

Thanks for listening!

[ThayanKnight]

I have spoken my stance on this a few times as well. The idea and motivation is not one with which I can argue: getting rid of the threat of ooc information being used to metagame. I've played on servers with and without the ooc info, and quite honestly, I have never seen it eliminate metagaming or use of ooc information.

Yes, we will know some ooc information about your character (and we will either way from character bios on the forum, PrC/race requests), however most of us that are playing for fun and enjoyment of the community aren't using it, its just stored knowledge. The people that will use it for unsavory purposes will gather up the information elsewhere and still use it against you, regardless of whatever restrictions are put in place.

I generally try to keep my evil characters' information private to protect them from metagaming, but guess what? It happens. You think someone's RP has changed once they found out ooc that you are a vampire/nymph/werewolf assassin/blackguard of Cyric? Call them out on it IC. Ask their character whats up and see if the RP is there to back it up. Sometimes they have actual IC reasons behind thinking something.

My Banite priest who is -extremely- selective of his confidants  has been called out numerous times over the course of the character's life on his faith and actually called a Banite. I know many good guys that are chomping at the bit for a slip up to bring him down because of ooc knowledge of his faith. Do I avoid their RP? Nope. But what if they stop or change their RP because of it? Adapt. Using this same example character: There was a very good aligned character who had ooc knowledge of his faith (eventually). Did it change their RP? Hell yes it did. Every conversation we were involved in from that point on ended up on faith and prying questions to look for a mistake or inconsistency. So did I avoid the good guy because of it? Nope. My character spent the next few weeks researching faiths, posing as someone else to speak with clergy about their  ideals and stuck it out. Its hardship that creates the best character development (in my opinion, anyway).

The point is, ooc knowledge is a part of the game, be it Neverwinter Nights, tabletop D&D, or any other interactive RPG. If you play a character with a dirty secret, always assume it will eventually get out and figure out how to run damage control. Had it not been for ooc information I would not have known that there was interest in the Zhentarim faction a few times, one quite recently. But it spurred RP and a new connection that may not have been made otherwise.

[Garage Trashcan]

At the very least, I can agree with removing build information on log-in, as it can be one of the more harmful types. I'm only really opposed to this because I'm curious as hell and like knowing things. But I've been around long enough to know what characters are around what level, who my characters's friends are to determine who I should log on as.

Metagaming from knowing someone's level is one of the trickier ones because it's not something you can really "prove." They offender almost always has plausible deniability and it could be for any number of reasons. That's not to say it's impossible to nail someone, but eh.

The point keeps getting repeated that if someone avoids you intentionally because of some buff they read on your On Examine...well, that's their silly decision to avoid you for it. Once more, I like it because I'm curious. If someone is using that knowledge to get the 1-up on you in PvP, chances are they'd win anyway because they built their character for PvP and most people here haven't.

[Vincent07]

And of course, hiding levels on the log-in screen is the more difficult one to do.

[Garage Trashcan]

We have a Dagesh for a reason

[trylobyte]

A few thoughts, in no order.

1)  Metagaming happens, period, but we seem to be in a new height of fear about it.  Nobody seems to trust anybody else to separate IC and OOC.  What's changed?  I've seen some incredibly damaging things get leaked/metagamed and the issues were resolved without a lot of fuss and bother, and pretty much nobody remembers them anymore.  I very much favor that approach to the problem rather than ham-fisting several systems just because some people sometimes take advantage of it.  Can't we all just be mature adults about this?

2)  Metagaming isn't always bad.  I use the challenge rating to find people about my level when I seek dungeoning companions, for instance, and I've been known to surf the login listings, see who has what classes, and then I know who I can talk to ICly and OOCly when I need a specific but hard-to-find role for a dungeon group (especially a rogue).  I'm perfectly capable of reading this listing without instantly metagaming 'ZOMG X IS A BLACKGUARD' - About the worst I've done is tease friends in tells about obviously cheesey builds.  Also, knowing some information can spur and increase interaction and lead to good roleplay.  If you play some super-special exotic race but nobody knows about it, what have you gained beyond a couple +1s in your character sheet?  It's also common for friends to alert each other of things going on, dungeon groups readying up, or quests a DM is doing, so they can show up and participate.  That's metagaming too, but it's the good kind so we don't mind it as much.

3)  These systems we're looking at are very, very minor sources of metagaming.  I've played here for, mm, 3 years now and I've only very rarely seen people metagame the challenge rating or stuff from the login screen.  Most of the stuff that gets metagamed comes from descriptions, bios, character journals, or OOC communication between players.  Whether a DM made an OOC comment during a quest that people took IC to give someone they don't like a hard time, someone in Skype alerts another player to a quest, prompting them to log in and show up, or a friend sends another friend a tell gossipping about someone in the Square, this is where most of that OOC information originates.  If you really want to see this in action, leave the CR and login screen in place but blank all descriptions, block all tells, and delete the whole character biography forum.  I bet you then that metagaming will be VERY rare.

4)  Not all accusations of metagaming are correct.  Expanding on Thayan's point would be the rumors around his Banite cleric.  One of my characters definitely thinks he is, and if people ask her about the subject she'll tell them she thinks he is.  He could call me out and accuse me of metagaming, because he's never done anything to directly prove to her that he is a Banite...  but he would be wrong, as she's collected enough circumstantial evidence to strongly suspect him of being one.  Her reasons for calling him such are entirely in-character and can be (and have been) explained using entirely in-character logic and events.  So not all metagaming accusations are even accurate so much as someone inadvertently or deliberately pulling the 'metagame' card to avoid ICly-acquired knowledge from being used against them.

[The Red Mage]

It's not about prohibiting or outlawing the action, because that's impossible. The suggestion is to just make the act more difficult to do, which will inherently discourage people from bothering.

[Vincent07]

May 31, 2014 13:59:12 GMT -5 Garage Trashcan said:

We have a Dagesh for a reason

It's not a script issue. It's a server client modification if I recall.  I know it got mentioned somewhere before.

[ClockworkMayhem]

May 31, 2014 14:46:26 GMT -5 The Red Mage said:

It's not about prohibiting or outlawing the action, because that's impossible. The suggestion is to just make the act more difficult to do, which will inherently discourage people from bothering.

This. So much this.

As for the supposition that "everyone meta games," well...yes and no. The mildest forms of metagaming, where we talk oocly to our friends about what we're doing (something that I try very hard to avoid, as anyone who has questioned me oocly as to the motivations of my characters can attest, save for DMs who, well, to be blunt, had a right and a need to ask), asking people on Skype to login and join a quest, or just deciding oocly that you want to run a dungeon, and getting your friends to come join in - okay, sure. Lots of people do those things. I sit next to SO everyday, and we often decide what we're going to do between us. That said, not everyone looks at the CR and decides to pick a fight with someone significantly lower level than them. Not everyone examines the buffs listed after the description and uses that to determine things like subrace, or checks the login screen to know the classes of the people they play with. Personally, I barely glance at that - I make a cursory check to see if there's anyone even on the server, or if there's a DM on if I need one, or if a friend I was looking forward to playing with will be there. That said, in the short time I've been playing this game, I have seen the above several more times than I cared to - not to mention tells with questions about my characters' motivations, or floods of information from people who are excited to share things about their characters (which I politely endure, but honestly, I find it would be best to learn these things in character).

No, eliminating CR and buffs from the description or the classes from the login screen will not stop metagaming entirely - not the "good" kind or the "bad." But it will heavily discourage a lot of the "bad" kind. Dungeon runs can be assembled based on whether or not your characters get along well enough to do these things together - you invite someone, they say yes, you go. All in character. As it is, I've done this before, even when I was told there was a possibility I would not receive XP for it - simply because the invitation was extended to my character. I had fun, regardless - even if it turned out my little lowbie was utterly useless. This can be done all the time, if no one knows automatically "so and so is at least five levels higher than I am." It eliminates a lot of what is frequently excused as "unconscious metagaming" (and sometimes, it is unconscious, but sometimes, it is not). Will metagaming go away entirely? Probably not. But if you're easing players' fears about it by taking this step, isn't it worth cutting it back? Saying, "This isn't worth the time because it will still happen, anyway," is like saying, "Well, putting a law in place to cut back on this kind of crime is pointless, because someone will always do it, anyway - it won't go away completely." It doesn't really make sense.

[ThayanKnight]

May 31, 2014 15:48:02 GMT -5 ClockworkMayhem said:

 Will metagaming go away entirely? Probably not. But if you're easing players' fears about it by taking this step, isn't it worth cutting it back? Saying, "This isn't worth the time because it will still happen, anyway," is like saying, "Well, putting a law in place to cut back on this kind of crime is pointless, because someone will always do it, anyway - it won't go away completely." It doesn't really make sense.

Not putting pointless laws in place makes perfect sense. If their purpose is just as easily achieved through addressing the person and issue (and adding an admin/staff when needed for mediation) why put in unnecessary blanket code to take away the right of someone else to use it for its intended purpose? The purpose of the code would be to reduce the prevalence of metgaming through making the means harder for everyone to target a few offenders. But if the offenders were brought to light, had the staff handle it, and  punish accordingly, then the same effect is reached without encroaching on those who do not use with ill will. As Trylo said, it may be a simple misunderstanding rather than blatant metagaming, so take a second and ask to find out and give the benefit of the doubt to your fellow player.

[dagesh]

There seems to be two arguments that are considering two different issues. One says they want a change because it directly and negatively impacts RP. Therefore it is a direct RP impact.   The other one says they don't like a change for a various reasons (no more rules, OOC info already exists). In this second case, there is no direct RP impact in a positive sense.  It still comes down to this, will it affect your fun (RP)?  If changing CR/Log in/Effects doesn't, great! This change will have little impact on your fun and that is the high aim of this server.  If changing these things does have a large impact, perhaps it's worth trying.

It's my opinion (what do people say about those?) that those who oppose the CR/Effect/Login-change has little to do w/ an overall effect on RP but more for convenience (ie finding a group to run a dungeon with).  Those who prefer a change claim it does in fact have an effect. Thus we could greatly improve someone's RP while this change would have little impact on the RP of others.

[trylobyte]

It's not all about the RP.  It's about overall 'quality of life' of the server.  If the server makes it more difficult to find a group, a needed class, or otherwise do things, all for a very minor decrease in something that isn't all that common, is it really a good thing for the server?

[ClockworkMayhem]

May 31, 2014 17:17:29 GMT -5 ThayanKnight said:

Not putting pointless laws in place makes perfect sense.

I did not say "pointless laws." Just because people break a law doesn't mean the law serves no purpose. There are laws in place against assault - is that pointless? No. Do people just play nice because the law says they should? Sure, some people do. Some people choose not to engage in such behavior because they think it is right not to do so, but some are only restrained by the law and the fear of negative consequence. Further, some simply aren't restrained by it, law or no law. Does that mean the law is pointless? No - because to a degree, it does limit the behavior.

I feel this situation is greatly similar (not that I feel I'm being assaulted when you metagame - simply that the concepts are analogous). You're free to disagree, and that's fine, but you missed my point. I don't think this would be a pointless change - I think this would greatly improve our RP experience. It would definitely improve mine. Call that selfish if you wish, but I'm aware I can't speak for everyone - I only know what would definitely be good for me. And judging by some of the responses, I'm not the only one who feels that way.

[ClockworkMayhem]

May 31, 2014 18:11:36 GMT -5 trylobyte said:

It's not all about the RP.  It's about overall 'quality of life' of the server.  If the server makes it more difficult to find a group, a needed class, or otherwise do things, all for a very minor decrease in something that isn't all that common, is it really a good thing for the server?

Would you really be that badly effected if you had to put together a dungeon group by asking in character if someone had a particular useful skill for the place you intend to visit? Really?

Is it so hard to dungeon with people your character relates well to?

And I would argue that metagaming is a lot more common than you think. Further, this is a roleplay server. I would argue that the roleplay experience is directly related to the "quality of life" of the server. In fact, I'd argue that it's the greatest indicator. Otherwise, why call it a roleplay server if throwing together a group for a dungeon oocly is more important than doing so through RP?

[Atomic Twinkie]

I find that CR and showing levels -does- impact on my RP. I can't tell you the amount of times I've been denied something because someone OOC knows something about my character. Even more to the point, on this server there was information leaked about my character that was personal to the character, things that should only have affected IC but ended up causing a massive OOC issue. That is what OOC knowledge can do.

When you put a cake out in open view and say it's illegal to eat it, but people know they can do so and get away with it because there's no real -evidence- for what you've done then what's to stop you? We like to believe that everyone is capable of being trusted and capable of being adults but then we're surprised when people don't act in accordance to what we think it's reasonable, because some people literally could care less about what other people say. That is why we take away things that cause temptation. I don't believe that taking something away would not be a detriment to anyones roleplay, but keeping it there very well could be; if you want to ask someone their level, race or class then you are more than welcome to but it should be their right to be able to decide whether or not they want to give you that OOC information. There is positive and negative metagaming, and although I have nothing against positive metagaming (arranging for RP and so on and so forth) - though I would try to do it less myself - I do have a problem against the negative metagaming.

I would feel far better if the knowledge about my character was kept to what can be learnt through IC means rather than OOC means and although there are people that share knowledge OOC to other people that is more easily proven than someone taken advantage of something that is there in plain sight for them to see. We can still punish those that metagame, but doing something that could be done (and I could get you all the relevent information on how to do it in a few days, tops) and help improve the server without any realistic detriment is definitely something worth doing, in my personal opinion.

If I want to go dungeoning, I never EVER look at their CR, I go with people that I like. In fact, I have done to dungeons with people that are epic level because our characters wanted to go together and it's often ended up being a great IC bonding experience because dungeon runs are treated as IC things by me, not OOC - and although I do sometimes lack in my RP during dungeons, I do still treat it as something that happens with my character. Shit, I even spend spellslots on RP spells like "Fly" just because I want to float around and be even more magical than I already am.