Poll - What is your opinion on exotic races?

[Fire Wraith]

Yes, this has gotten a bit off topic, and in general, I think the important things are covered.

I'll just make one last point about levels, stories, characters, and so on.

The focus is on the story, yes. It's on the development of the character, and their interactions with the people around them.  That said, this is not a level-free environment. We could easily achieve that by artificially setting everyone to a given level, or just making CD a level-cap style server, where everyone powerlevels to (or is given outright) the "target" level.

It's not.

Part of your character's story is their journey, their development from being a rookie, to a veteran, to being someone of considerable power. To this end, D&D, and NWN, tie many things to your level, including spells, feats, and other abilities. We made a conscious choice to make Tiefling and Aasimar wings part of this.

We don't believe you should need any of these things to be able to roleplay and have fun. Are they nice to have? Sure. But don't expect us to be terribly sympathetic if you design a character that violates these, any more than designing a character that's supposed to already be an Archmage. If anything, we're going to suggest coming up with a reason for why your character lost whatever it was they had, and needs to gain them back - but we're not going to alter the system itself unless there's a compelling reason, and I really don't see one here, since I can't think of anyone else in the 9 years this has been a feat on CD having an issue with it.

Furthermore, if anything it's a lot easier to achieve level 12 now than it was 9 years ago when CD was built, due to changes in the XP structure. While the ECL originally didn't count towards when you started to hit the RPXP gating, that RPXP gating also started at 7th level, and there was no "XP fairy", so if you had the misfortune to be unlucky in your play times vs those of the more active DMs, it was much harder to pass those levels.

Now, it's certainly possible to disagree with our logic - but there is a logic to it, and it's applied equally to everyone, whether it's myself or Vincent playing one, an old veteran, or a brand new person that never set foot in CD before a month ago.

[trylobyte]

Oct 4, 2014 19:08:33 GMT -5 Fire Wraith said:

Yes, this has gotten a bit off topic, and in general, I think the important things are covered.

I'll just make one last point about levels, stories, characters, and so on.

The focus is on the story, yes. It's on the development of the character, and their interactions with the people around them.  That said, this is not a level-free environment. We could easily achieve that by artificially setting everyone to a given level, or just making CD a level-cap style server, where everyone powerlevels to (or is given outright) the "target" level.

It's not.

Part of your character's story is their journey, their development from being a rookie, to a veteran, to being someone of considerable power. To this end, D&D, and NWN, tie many things to your level, including spells, feats, and other abilities. We made a conscious choice to make Tiefling and Aasimar wings part of this.

We don't believe you should need any of these things to be able to roleplay and have fun. Are they nice to have? Sure. But don't expect us to be terribly sympathetic if you design a character that violates these, any more than designing a character that's supposed to already be an Archmage. If anything, we're going to suggest coming up with a reason for why your character lost whatever it was they had, and needs to gain them back - but we're not going to alter the system itself unless there's a compelling reason, and I really don't see one here, since I can't think of anyone else in the 9 years this has been a feat on CD having an issue with it.

Furthermore, if anything it's a lot easier to achieve level 12 now than it was 9 years ago when CD was built, due to changes in the XP structure. While the ECL originally didn't count towards when you started to hit the RPXP gating, that RPXP gating also started at 7th level, and there was no "XP fairy", so if you had the misfortune to be unlucky in your play times vs those of the more active DMs, it was much harder to pass those levels.

Now, it's certainly possible to disagree with our logic - but there is a logic to it, and it's applied equally to everyone, whether it's myself or Vincent playing one, an old veteran, or a brand new person that never set foot in CD before a month ago.

I do disagree with your logic, which is why I'm arguing with it. The only problem I have with this post in relation to the current issue is the 'come up with a compelling reason why they lost it, then get it back' - That works fine for mental aspects, like feats or languages or class levels, but doesn't work quite as well for physical body parts.  I do promise that I'm going to drop the wings issue though - It's ultimately an extremely niche issue that hasn't come up before because I'm probably the first one to come up with a situation where it would matter.  It just annoyed me because I was told level 9 before I made the character, then the person who told me (I shall not name them; politeness!) remembered it was level 12 only after I hit level 6 and asked why I couldn't take the prerequisite feat (which had been moved to 9).  That alone told me this is probably one of those things that's never come up before.  It introduced a whole lot of holes into the story I'd decided to go with (which thankfully nobody has yet brought up ingame, because I don't have a good explanation for them) and generally made things more difficult.

I do have a final thought on the general ECL race topic, but that will come later, once my hair has be en cut and new pants have been purchased.  Priorities!

[trylobyte]

"The focus is on the story, yes. It's on the development of the character, and their interactions with the people around them."  - Fire Wraith
"Because some people want to short circuit the character development that's supposed to accompany these sorts of things, and thus we impose a brake on that." - Fire Wraith

How do you justify the presence of half-dragon when these are the philosophies you follow?  Half-dragon pretty much exists as a replacement for the Dragon Disciple prestige class.  The problem here is that the Dragon Disciple class lends itself much, much better to character development and storytelling than the half-dragon race because it requires a character to develop and tell a story as they level up in the class.  And it works too - I've seen some very strong roleplaying from dragon disciples as they go through their changes.  It's a class that's not only great for roleplaying but generally fairly solid on a mechanical level too, if you plan around it.

Half-Dragon being an option for an ECL race eliminates all that.

Instead of developing and growing as a character, they start out with all that potential growth and development done offstage, short-circuiting the character development of the dragon disciple.  The changes, the growth, the emotions that come with such a transformation, they don't exist.  The character was always that way.  Further, since the attitudes of PCs are so lenient towards exotic races, there's rarely any special interactions between half-dragons and other characters since they're common enough to be readily accepted.  And on mechanical terms, they get all the benefits of the full ten-level prestige class for only a three level penalty, which is a 70% discount - There's not even a prerequisite class like Dragon Disciple has (so it's more of a 73% discount).

[Edge]

If it truly "eliminated all that", then you'd never have people taking the class. And given how many DD's I've seen on login just in the week or two I've been back, somehow it doesn't seem to be happening. And frankly "well they're just doing it so they don't have to put in the application" doesn't really cut it. I can pretty much guarantee you even if FW and Vince threw open the doors and all you had to do to get an exotic race was sign on the dotted line, no muss no fuss, that you'd still have people taking the PrC instead.

The two provide very different origin points for roleplay, different backstory seeds and plot hooks, and there are times when one will be more or less appropriate than the other for a given character.

You're making a mountain out of a molehill.

[trylobyte]

Oct 5, 2014 13:38:42 GMT -5 Edge said:

You're making a mountain out of a molehill.

It's what I do.  I have it printed on my business card.  'Mountains out of Molehills!  Inquire today!'

[sinisteromnibus]

Oct 5, 2014 14:48:56 GMT -5 trylobyte said:

Oct 5, 2014 13:38:42 GMT -5 Edge said:

You're making a mountain out of a molehill.

It's what I do.  I have it printed on my business card.  'Mountains out of Molehills!  Inquire today!'

When you post things like this it makes it very difficult to take any argument you make seriously. This will be my only contribution to the thread.

[Arya]

Trylo, I will be honest with you here.

Right now, it almost sounds like the argument is more about being upset at what cannot be had, instead of seeing it as an opportunity to obtain it over time.  And thus all these other ECL races need all this scrutiny because they have what your chosen ECL does not have.  If you feel that strongly about the topic, why did you not start with half-celestial? Or just wait until level 12? 

Have you thought that maybe the ECL limitations over all are part of why tieflings and aasimars do not start out with wings? The +1 ECL versus the +4 or +3 that these other ECLs have?  I admit, I am trying very hard to pay attention to this thread, but I do not remember this part being discussed. If so, forget I said anything on that topic. >.>

~Arya

[trylobyte]

Oct 5, 2014 15:09:35 GMT -5 Arya Kalarathri said:

Trylo, I will be honest with you here.

Right now, it almost sounds like the argument is more about being upset at what cannot be had, instead of seeing it as an opportunity to obtain it over time.  And thus all these other ECL races need all this scrutiny because they have what your chosen ECL does not have.  If you feel that strongly about the topic, why did you not start with half-celestial? Or just wait until level 12? 

Have you thought that maybe the ECL limitations over all are part of why tieflings and aasimars do not start out with wings? The +1 ECL versus the +4 or +3 that these other ECLs have?  I admit, I am trying very hard to pay attention to this thread, but I do not remember this part being discussed. If so, forget I said anything on that topic. >.>

~Arya

That's because I'm blending arguments together.  Essentially, I'm expressing annoyance at two things, but they're related so I link them together.

1)  I think ECL races are too common in general, especially higher-ECL (and thus 'rarer') races.  I also think they're too powerful for their price.
2)  I'm annoyed at the level requirement for aasimar/tiefling wings because the arguments I was given as to why the requirement is there do not make sense in light of other decisions.

So I can see how you'd get that perception.  I'm actually arguing two different topics, but they're close enough that I argue them at the same time.

And to SinisterOmnibus:  I sometimes need to remind myself that I shouldn't take this half as seriously as I do.  'S why I make posts like that.

[Arya]

There is also this: it is better to just play what you want, and live by the standards you set yourself, instead of expecting others to comply.

I have to take that attitude with the elves - especially since there is at least one or two people who would easily point three fingers at me because I play a more liberal elf.  But I used to get very annoyed sometimes at the forlorn that are about (they make my liberal seem conservative!), and how it feels like they have no acknowledgement or even curiosity of their heritage. I have reduced -a lot- of frustration by just choosing to play what I want to play, live to the standards I want to see, versus expecting others to do the same.  Then owning it when I do break my own 'rules' (which are almost more like guidelines, anyway).  Some people respect me for it, some people hate how I view things.  It is what it is.  

I just think doing that would make a lot of people -much- happier here if they just be the thing they want to see in the server, as opposed to expecting others to be that.

Sincerely,
Arya

[ClockworkMayhem]

1)  I think ECL races are too common in general, especially higher-ECL (and thus 'rarer') races.  I also think they're too powerful for their price.

See...what bothers me about this is that I keep seeing it from people who either have had ECL characters before, or, you know, recently created one. Seems...what's the word...

hypocritical?

[Fire Wraith]

You know, I've said a million times before that I don't like Half-Dragons as they currently stand.

But I'm not the only one who gets to make that decision, and thus I have to do something that you might do well to do, which is to state my piece, and then make my peace with what the sense of the others is.

It in no way changes my mind about the wing requirements for Aasimars and Tieflings - if anything, it does the opposite.

[Edge]

So I have to ask. Trylo, what are you hoping to accomplish here?

Are you trying to change the staff's mind about how the ECL system and exotic race system is done? Because I'm pretty sure back at the beginning of the thread it was made quite clear that no changes would be made, and that the purpose of this thread was not to lobby for such changes.

Or are you just venting?

[trylobyte]

Mostly venting.  Going to stop for now, though.  There's enough going on that I don't need to add to it.