Encountered an obvious evil - What do I do?

[Sir Ven]

Afternoon all,

Yesterday,  I found myself in a situation with my Chaotic Good, Pro-Freedom (Very, very anti-slavery) character that I didn't know how to handle.   So, I'm looking for a little advice to avoid the outcome I got, which was basically to log out and not to play, because I could see no good outcomes. 

I was heading to a dungeon, crossed paths with 2 other people heading the same way.  A Drow (openly, visibly a Drow) and their slave.   Worth noting this was on the surface.   Without getting into a blow-by-blow, I think it's pretty likely my character who is passionately anti-slavery is going to work out pretty fast this is not a nice Drow and that the surfacer with them was their slave.     In those circumstances, ICly, my character would (I think, reasonably?)  kill them - or try to, at least. 

Assuming they even agree to PvP, that's not really fun for anyone right?  They die.   My character investigates them, maybe figures out who their disguised appearance is?   But even if they do, they're not allowed to tell anyone, because that breaks the "Don't out people rule".   He's not about to raise them, or heal their wounds - their an evil slaver.   Presumably they just respawn.

So what happens next?   If they try to complain about the attack ICly, they out themselves as an evil Drow, so they won't do that.   If they don't complain and I'm not allowed to out them, or say anything about it, then... That's that.   My character beats up someone else's character, they respawn.  Nothing really changes, or grows or improves.  There's no story.

It's possible the evil drow tries to plot revenge, but, what can they really do?  They're not allowed to just assassinate, or poison my character - and even if they were, does it really make IC sense?  They were killed and died, they shouldn't be in a position to be able to take revenge.   Any revenge they take is likely to just be "Now you're dead, please respawn - but you can't RP about what happened because that would out my Drow and that's against the rules".

However I game it out,  it seems to lead to dead-ends.  Nobody wins and chances are at least one party, if not both, end up frustrated.

--

So, I didn't do anything.   I pretended I didn't see them, I went back to town and I logged off.  It seemed to me that not playing was better than creating any of the situations above, so I did, but surely the solution can't simply be "Don't play" or "ignore it until it goes away".   There must be a better option here?

[haroshia]

I've struggled with this for a while.  I came from an environment where PvP was commonplace and accepted, for even the smallest slights.  Something like this would be a no brainer.  You both fight, somebody dies, and that means they yield the space.

This isn't good or fun though.  I've tried a few different things here.  I've tried engaging with it from an RP discussion perspective, but all that's done has gotten my character labeled a zealous bully by some.  I've tried encouraging people to stick their openly evil RP characters in openly evil spaces, but again that gets people angry because those spaces are underpopulated.  I've tried ignoring it ICly and giving the benefit of the doubt, but that's gotten my character taken advantage of and looking foolish as a good character.

So now I'm just kinda at the stage of not engaging as much as I can.  It seems to be the only way to deal with it.  You wanna play Joe Evilguy in the square to get your ticks, fine.  I'm not gonna talk to you.  We run into each other in the field, I'm gonna walk away.  I honestly can't find a more productive choice that's conducive to good RP, and maybe that's on me as a player.  I think it's the best choice, and a sacrifice made to keep a healthy RP environment that doesn't devolve into a pointless conflict spiral.

[Dreamwalker]

I had always understood this exact issue to be the reason for the following questions in Exotic Race Applications:

How does this race affects the character's roleplay?




How does it affect the roleplay of others?



Does it maintain the integrity of the setting?




If you're applying for a character with a reaction level, or who is otherwise of an uncommon race or appearance, please answer the following two questions:

• How does the reaction level affect your PC and how you will mitigate any consequences of your character's reaction level?
• How will your character conceal or otherwise hide their unusual appearance to blend in with common or accepted races of the setting?

Therefore, I feel the onus of avoiding these sorts of issues falls to the player of that/those PCs. They weren't hidden, and should be comfortable with the IC consequences of even a "hey you ,get out of here you silly drow, go back underground silly."

On the other hand the decision to leave and then log off if that disconnect bothered you is fine as well. 

Even on open PvP servers I typically sent tells to other players asking if they were comfortable with PvP before engaging in it as at the end of the day we're all playing this to have fun. In this situation I might have sent a tell asking if they were comfortable with and/or expecting some hostile roleplay due to being out of disguise. The player may have simply been playing tired and missed that bit- would have served as a courtesy and maybe even a heads-up.

If they met that with anything short of the same courtesy I'd then probably let DMs know, since at that point it is impacting the fun of others and immersion breaking AKA not maintaining the integrity of the setting.

[Tarostar]

According to the server rules:

10A: Open slavery falls according to the rules under the mature content and secret associations rules rules to a degree as it forces players to react to it.

In Cormyr and most of the Dalelands it must not be brought up/ must be kept quiet.

If your character could determine it was a master and their slave with the master being a drow then it depends as I read the rules on the spot where you saw them. If it was Cormyr or (most of) the Dales then the master and slave should not have rp'ed any master/slave ties as the rules as I read them forbid that. If it was elsewhere I am not certain but being open about it feels like your character, as I read the rules, can react to them.

[Eruheran]

I feel for you on this one. I think you did right by how you feel, but I don't think that that should have to be the right option, to ignore.

In cases like these, especially if you're emphatic, you worry about the other player, and don't want to ruin their experience, however, as Jalthex mentioned above, they opted into that role, understanding that their character race/background or otherwise will, in many cases, have a negative reaction.

In times like these, one needs to trust their fellow players. The best one can do is send them a tell beforehand, to set the understanding, that your character has encountered theirs and icly they cannot ignore them, and to ask where the line in the sand is, whether they wish for open pvp or for roleplay to lead to an impass or otherwise.

I find it a real pity that player agency that is respected by other players can be hard to come by as haroshia has pointed out in their own experiences trying to navigate similar situations.
In an ideal world these types of characters would either hardly encounter one another or those that wished to remain hidden would go through bigger lengths to do so, but with the way the game is implicated, with it's closed map borders and all, that becomes harder to accomplish.

So.. what to do? Given what OP has said about not being able to out someone due to the secrets rule, it's hard to say. It's like you're sacrificing your IC play for an OOC one, which never really feels right in my experience.

If I were to put myself in the shoes of all involved, the situation would have come with a hostile roleplay, maybe pvp. Maybe I'd ask if they wanted to resolve fleeing by a dicerolls if I wanted to go the extra mile. Good aligned boy goes back to civilization, maybe talks about their encounter with a random drow out in the wild, maybe talks about their characteristics. As the drow, I'd have understood that I'd probably need to lay low for a bit, maybe invest more heavily into moving around on the surface disguised, and disguising my slave for a time until things have blown over a bit and those who heard the tale second-hand will have forgotten the details - as it is very mortal to forget intricate details over time. It's roleplay, it's a story, a continuing, consistent one, which is what I'd like to strive for.

Not saying that's how it should have gone, but just how I would have handled things from either side. Does the server allow for such? I can't really say, I haven't had a like encounter myself to refer to, but I would hope that if I ever did, those involved would all be able to handle themselves, and their feelings, seperate OOC from IC, and so forth.

:Shrug: It's hard to comment further really on my part, I think that's all I can really say from my own pov on matters in this headspace.

[Terallis]

Given the situation itself, I'll advise to please submit a complaint/concern report into the admins if there are issues with it. Please and thanks!

Complaints/Concern Form can be found here

[Sir Ven]

Jul 30, 2022 19:49:58 GMT -5 Terallis said:

Given the situation itself, I'll advise to please submit a complaint/concern report into the admins if there are issues with it. Please and thanks!

Complaints/Concern Form can be found here

But I don't have a complaint?   I have no quarrel or issue with either of the other characters, or players, involved in this situation.   I also think that given CD has a growing evil population (Drow and non-Drow) and has - it seems to this observer- actively courted and encouraged the creation of more evil characters by creating space for them to be evil (The UD, then Yulash).  Given the predominantly good-aligned nature of most of the server (Cormyr, Highmoon, Velethuil)  there's a growing likelihood that escalating conflicts will start to develop.

It's my personal opinion that an open discussion on what this means for the server and effective ways of responding which help to ensure everyone has fun, is a good thing.

[Edge]

We're in the process of building a fully self-sufficient Underdark now as well, so this shouldn't be much of an issue once it's ready. It's just a time-consuming process.

[Running With Razors]

Sir Ven does make a great point, here.

Are we just expected to ignore the evil PC character when they show up and do something obviously evil? What if I wished to intervene ICly?

[Arya]

For me, some communication and collaboration go a way to finding a solution amicable to everyone. PvP naturally is a last resort, but I feel it would be breaking character to not react to a situation described above. Even my not-goodly character may react to that in a violent way (if not at least a threat). So despite CD being a more collaborative environment, we need to discuss what to do in situations like this even individually.


Best,
Arya

[Kreindis]

Like Haroshia, I also came from an extremely PvP focused RP server. I would go so far as to call it an actual PvP server with how the community behaved.

One of the biggest appeals of CD to me is that it's not that. I have done a ton of RP PvP and the best outcome with mechanical fights is that you stop hitting at 'near death' and then RP out the scene afterwards. CD actually encourages this heavily with the subdual mode. So assuming both players agree to PvP through and both players have subdual mode on, and IC TREAT it like a fatal combat. I think that can be fine. After that, if someone still wants to engage in fatal combat, I guess turn subdual mode off because it should be very clear at that point.

That's the best way imo, to handle it mechanically. I honestly have never done an PvP engagement through rolls because it's very difficult to do that organically. I've heard it's the best thing ever though so if you want to try to go for that angle and either do stuff like putting /dicepublic on, emoting clear hostile intent (this is something that people very infrequently do which is a shame), and then diceroll intimidate or something like that OR ask the opposing player if they want to settle the fight with dice rolls or mechanics. I think that could go a long ways to making both parties feel better."

But yeah, I honestly think that these considerations are the best way for both players to have fun in a PvP encounter.

That said, I think just avoiding the player and logging or teleporting away or just removing yourself from the situation is 100% a valid choice. The only thing that I really would consider to be invalid is the most frequent use of PvP which is to basically just flex; starting a fight just to prove mechanical skill/prowess in order to further your story and end someone else's at any opportunity. This is what starts the endless conflict spirals and I don't know about other people, but I personally don't enjoy having to look over shoulder at every moment IC while playing a game.

[DubiousScroll]

Jul 30, 2022 10:06:26 GMT -5 Sir Ven said:

Afternoon all,

Yesterday,  I found myself in a situation with my Chaotic Good, Pro-Freedom (Very, very anti-slavery) character that I didn't know how to handle.   So, I'm looking for a little advice to avoid the outcome I got, which was basically to log out and not to play, because I could see no good outcomes. 

I was heading to a dungeon, crossed paths with 2 other people heading the same way.  A Drow (openly, visibly a Drow) and their slave.   Worth noting this was on the surface.   Without getting into a blow-by-blow, I think it's pretty likely my character who is passionately anti-slavery is going to work out pretty fast this is not a nice Drow and that the surfacer with them was their slave.     In those circumstances, ICly, my character would (I think, reasonably?)  kill them - or try to, at least. 

Assuming they even agree to PvP, that's not really fun for anyone right?  They die.   My character investigates them, maybe figures out who their disguised appearance is?   But even if they do, they're not allowed to tell anyone, because that breaks the "Don't out people rule".   He's not about to raise them, or heal their wounds - their an evil slaver.   Presumably they just respawn.

So what happens next?   If they try to complain about the attack ICly, they out themselves as an evil Drow, so they won't do that.   If they don't complain and I'm not allowed to out them, or say anything about it, then... That's that.   My character beats up someone else's character, they respawn.  Nothing really changes, or grows or improves.  There's no story.

It's possible the evil drow tries to plot revenge, but, what can they really do?  They're not allowed to just assassinate, or poison my character - and even if they were, does it really make IC sense?  They were killed and died, they shouldn't be in a position to be able to take revenge.   Any revenge they take is likely to just be "Now you're dead, please respawn - but you can't RP about what happened because that would out my Drow and that's against the rules".

However I game it out,  it seems to lead to dead-ends.  Nobody wins and chances are at least one party, if not both, end up frustrated.

--

So, I didn't do anything.   I pretended I didn't see them, I went back to town and I logged off.  It seemed to me that not playing was better than creating any of the situations above, so I did, but surely the solution can't simply be "Don't play" or "ignore it until it goes away".   There must be a better option here?

I think the "don't out anyone" rule only applies when they're trying to hide it.  If they're openly being ... whatever, I don't think you have to pretend your character doesn't know what they are in other public spaces.  One of the main tenants of the race application is stating you understand and accept the consequences of what happens to you if what you are becomes common knowledge. 

[haroshia]

Jul 31, 2022 12:44:44 GMT -5 DubiousScroll said:

"If I know a character is a member of Category 4/5/6, can I talk about it publicly?

The short answer is "it depends." If the character themselves is making no attempt to conceal their nature publicly, or discussing it themselves, then yes. Their nature is considered public knowledge at that point. However, if a character is attempting to abide by these rules but is still discovered or revealed, we ask that you do not casually announce/discuss the matter publicly. This negates the entire purpose behind them attempting to maintain a degree of public secrecy, and forces other players to react as though the character were openly walking about with their race revealed."


I think if it's out in the field that you stumble across them that's different from walking around in a town uncovered...so I don't think they've outted themselves in this case.

The question becomes though what do you /do/ with that info?  What productive RP do you as a good character have with an evil character who if they were an NPC you'd just cut down and go about your day?  There's a certain suspension of disbelief required for good RP that doesn't devolve into stupid conflict, but I think the initial question is valid.  

[DubiousScroll]

Jul 31, 2022 12:58:48 GMT -5 haroshia said:

Jul 31, 2022 12:44:44 GMT -5 DubiousScroll said:

"If I know a character is a member of Category 4/5/6, can I talk about it publicly?

The short answer is "it depends." If the character themselves is making no attempt to conceal their nature publicly, or discussing it themselves, then yes. Their nature is considered public knowledge at that point. However, if a character is attempting to abide by these rules but is still discovered or revealed, we ask that you do not casually announce/discuss the matter publicly. This negates the entire purpose behind them attempting to maintain a degree of public secrecy, and forces other players to react as though the character were openly walking about with their race revealed."


I think if it's out in the field that you stumble across them that's different from walking around in a town uncovered...so I don't think they've outted themselves in this case.

The question becomes though what do you /do/ with that info?  What productive RP do you as a good character have with an evil character who if they were an NPC you'd just cut down and go about your day?  There's a certain suspension of disbelief required for good RP that doesn't devolve into stupid conflict, but I think the initial question is valid.  

I'm of the personal opinion that if they were out on the surface in the usual haunts of other adventurers, not making an effort to hide what they are, that is them not making an effort.  If someone stumbled upon either of my wererats in hybrid form killing goblins or undead or whatever, I would never expect them to not tell their friends or for there not to be social consequences because I chose to willingly take that risk while out dungeoning. 

As to what you do with that information, yeah, I don't know.  The lack of being able to actually have meaningful conflict with the other side of the alignment spectrum has always been something this server has struggled with.  My suggestion would be to see if you could work with the other players in tells to come up with a solution that doesn't completely destroy or take you out of RP.

[Epi]

Being almost anywhere on the surface without disguise/Alter Self/etc, as a Drow or other "obviously evil" thing, is not something other players should have to deal with.

@ Ven - for me it usually depends on my OOC state of mind. The most logical thing for a surfacer spotting a drow (or vice versa if there's a human in the Underdark) is to confront them, knives out (or just throw a fireball as a greeting). If that's not what I'm looking for that day, then ignoring works.