Research Time with Hyde!: Dragons in the Forgotten Realms

[Ogre Time Yay]

Hey folks, so some things happened and reveals took place on the server, which inevitably leads to me researching a certain topic concerning the Forgotten Realms... Once again...

This time it's dragons, I have a few questions I would like to learn about them, if anyone can answer them I will greatly appreciate it, as always.
Starting simple:

1.) Do Red Dragon Disciples only morph into Red Dragons, or do they morph into other types of dragons depending on what alignment that character is? I get the feeling that Red Dragon types of characters are generally evil, or so I thought at least... This leads into another question.

2.) How are Dragons born? One answer I assumed is that two dragons of the same kind, Silver on Silver birth another Silver, right? Well I also started to consider something mentioned above in my first question, are dragons birthed by breed, or alignment? One might say it's impossible for a dragon to be birthed by alignment, considering a baby might be too innocent to even consider good or bad, but what if the parent, a Gold Dragon (Usually Lawful Good), for some reason turned evil and did evil things because of an event that happened to him/her in its story? Would that now evil Gold Dragon give birth to a Red Dragon?

3.) I noticed that in the Forgotten Realms wikis and information, certain dragons are paired with certain alignments. Is that the final truth, end of discussion alignment? Like is a Silver Dragon supposed to be Lawful Good, no matter what? Or are their times when Silver Dragons through freedom of self, become what ever alignment they please, like Chaotic Good? Do Dragons have that freedom, or are their alignments similar to that of a Paladin ((Or any other class locked to a specific alignment))?

4.) If a character has dragon blood, with that characters ancestors and past relatives being, let's say... Copper Dragons, giving that character Copper Dragon blood. If that character decided to further pursue his or her bloodline as a dragon through the way of Red Dragon Disciple, does that character morph into a Red Dragon anyways, or does the character morph into whatever dragon is in his or her blood?



Thanks in advance, folks!

[Arya]

1.) No matter their alignment, dragon disciples morph into the blood of the dragon that meddled in the line.  Your character can be Lawful Good but still be a Red Dragon Disciple.  That being said, there has to be some reason why that character would want to tap into that blood. <.< So definitely will take a lot of creativity and strong rationale for those levels to accumulate. 

2.) That is a good question, though a complicated answer.  I believe that dragons breed dragons based on their type, even if there was that 1% chance of the creature being deviated from their alignment.  They are not like planars in this sense.  Some others might be more specialized with dragons than I, though.

3.) Those are indeed a bit more set in stone than, say, an orc or a drow's given alignment in the same wiki.  I would, of course, caution against looking at most 4.0 stuff.  Still, in previous editions, it is still a safe bet to assume 99% of Gold Dragons and Silver Dragons are Lawful Good, while the same number of Deep and Red Dragons are Chaotic Evil. I personally could see a one step rule being applied on the law vs. chaos scale, but barring half-dragon ratios, or sanctified (or major corruption) templates being applied, the full-blooded dragon ones are pretty set in stone in the same manner full-fledged true fiends and celestials are (rakshasas or half-planars are not 'true'). Fallen angels and risen fiends alike are 1% of their respective demographic - there are not that many Falls-From-Grace sorts out there in that realm.

Keep in mind that dragon wyrmlings are going to have the same intellectual capacity and maturity as an adult humanoid.  This is another explanation for why their alignments almost never deviate.  Those creatures, like elves, are already learning stuff right before they are born.  Dragon wyrmlings are quite capable of manipulating adult humanoids.  So...while I can sometimes see them being neutral when caught -before- birth, they generally are not otherwise.  More devoted dragon experts can add their conjecture. :-D  


4.) I think the closest dragon disciples can become are similar to half-dragons.  I know there was a discussion of some differences in CD, but the Apotheosis gives the character a half-dragon or similar template.  While in theory and with magic, anything is possible, I do not see them becoming full-dragons just from having, say, epic dragon disciple levels.  Not even if it was 30 epic dragon disciple levels (not typically, anyway).  If magical transmutation was involved, and maybe some complex ritual involving a live (or dead) dragon, it might be a possibility.  But the cost would be extremely high.  

Another thing to keep in mind - unless there was some way that extremely expensive magic could alter the character's mind, that character could become insane from the longevity.  It is one reason why many well-intended elves frown upon nonelves trying to become an elf without elven help.  And probably one solid reason as to why Jander Sunstar did not turn evil when he was turned into a vampire.  Longevity for races (or former races) not meant for such can induce insanity without additional assistance.

[Ogre Time Yay]

Thanks! That pretty much covers most of what I was looking for, though I welcome any additional information that others might be able to provide. In understanding, those who tap into their dragon blood by means of magic are considered about 1/3 dragon and 2/3 their original race, while a guy born to one dragon and one human is genuinely a half dragon. That there is the key information I have been keeping my eye open for, along side the types of dragons Red Dragon Disciples can morph into, so thanks again.

[realityjumper]

Only things I would add:

Copper becomes copper, et al. because a drow is a drow and a moon elf a moon elf. A drow can change alignment but would never be a moon elf.

There is some thoughts that dragons have an imprint-hive-ancestor mindset. That basic knowledge is built into them to be a certain way because its in their makeup. There are animals in the "real world" that are like this. Even without parents to guide them, they invariably know certain things that every other of their species would.

How are they born? Eggs, man. Thought everyone knew that!

[Ogre Time Yay]

Nov 12, 2014 13:20:42 GMT -5 realityjumper said:

Only things I would add:

Copper becomes copper, et al. because a drow is a drow and a moon elf a moon elf. A drow can change alignment but would never be a moon elf.

There is some thoughts that dragons have an imprint-hive-ancestor mindset. That basic knowledge is built into them to be a certain way because its in their makeup. There are animals in the "real world" that are like this. Even without parents to guide them, they invariably know certain things that every other of their species would.

How are they born? Eggs, man. Thought everyone knew that!

Dragon sunny side up. 8)

[Edge]

Nov 12, 2014 11:28:25 GMT -5 Ogre Time Yay said:

Hey folks, so some things happened and reveals took place on the server, which inevitably leads to me researching a certain topic concerning the Forgotten Realms... Once again...

This time it's dragons, I have a few questions I would like to learn about them, if anyone can answer them I will greatly appreciate it, as always.
Starting simple:

This? This is my jam.

1.) Do Red Dragon Disciples only morph into Red Dragons, or do they morph into other types of dragons depending on what alignment that character is? I get the feeling that Red Dragon types of characters are generally evil, or so I thought at least... This leads into another question.

As Arya said, the type of Dragon Disciple that results is not tied to alignment like an outsider but to bloodline. If you had an evil ancestor who dallied around with chromatic dragons, that taint rests in your heritage regardless of what your personal alignment is. Likewise, as Arya said, certain kinds of bloodlines are going to be more attractive to certain individuals. Certain good characters wouldn't want to mar themselves with the power granted by evil draconic ancestry, fearful it might tempt them into actions they would otherwise deplore. Others might be willing to take the consequences of any such action for the strength they need to do good things - protect others, stop evil, and otherwise make a difference - and might be willing to scorn their own physical appearance and bloodline by drawing out that ancient power, whatever the consequences. It really depends on the character, the circumstances, and the reasonings.

2.) How are Dragons born? One answer I assumed is that two dragons of the same kind, Silver on Silver birth another Silver, right? Well I also started to consider something mentioned above in my first question, are dragons birthed by breed, or alignment? One might say it's impossible for a dragon to be birthed by alignment, considering a baby might be too innocent to even consider good or bad, but what if the parent, a Gold Dragon (Usually Lawful Good), for some reason turned evil and did evil things because of an event that happened to him/her in its story? Would that now evil Gold Dragon give birth to a Red Dragon?

Again, seconding Arya. Dragons are born by species, not by alignment - an evil gold dragon fathers/mothers baby gold dragons. EXCEPT in cases of cross-species interbreeding.

There's a chart in Draconomicon (I believe) and a similar one produced by Paizo for Pathfinder regarding the effects of two different species of dragons interbreeding. Basically, what it says is the dragon type that is born between two dragons of differing colors is dependent on how powerful the two species are in respect to one another. Red Dragons are the mightiest of the Chromatics; a Red Dragon (father OR mother) breeding with any other kind of chromatic will produce Red offspring. White Dragons, being the lowliest of the chromatics, can only produce more White Dragons by breeding with White Dragons; any other species will produce dragons of the other color. Likewise for the metallics, with Gold at the top and I believe Bronze at the bottom (correct me if I'm wrong, since I'm AFB I can't look it up right this moment; if it's not Bronze it's Copper).

I believe the official listing is Red > Blue > Black > Green > White for chromatics, and Gold > Silver > Brass > Copper/Bronze > Bronze/Copper for metallics.

It gets a bit weirder if you try to consider metallic-chromatic crossbreeding, or bring in the various other types of dragons - the gemstone dragons, the untyped dragons like prismatics and shadows, the planar dragons, and so forth. At that point I would have to just say it's the GM's/setting maker's call. So in this case, Vincent and FW.

Beyond that, for the blunt answer, yes. Dragons are oviparous - they lay eggs. Typical clutches are three to seven eggs, varying up or down based on dragon type.

So that settles that, but we're not quite done, but I'll get into the next below, since it touches on your next question....

3.) I noticed that in the Forgotten Realms wikis and information, certain dragons are paired with certain alignments. Is that the final truth, end of discussion alignment? Like is a Silver Dragon supposed to be Lawful Good, no matter what? Or are their times when Silver Dragons through freedom of self, become what ever alignment they please, like Chaotic Good? Do Dragons have that freedom, or are their alignments similar to that of a Paladin ((Or any other class locked to a specific alignment))?

In addition to what was already stated about dragons' high intellectual capacity even at extremely young ages, Draconomicon suggests that dragons have a sort of rudimentary racial memory. When a wyrmling dragon is in the egg, its growing mind is nourished by not only the nutrients in the egg but a sort of dream-memory inherited from its parents, their parents, and so on and so forth back generations upon generations. What this means, in short, is that a dragon is born knowing that being (insert alignment of dragon type here) IS a successful prospect. After all, its parents, and their parents, and their parents, all the way back to time immemorial, were all (generally) of X alignment. It got the Cliff's Notes version of their lives, and saw them live, grow, triumph, and mate and pass something of themselves on to the next generation countless times over. That, among many other things, imprints a very strong mental connection between "species's standard alignment" and "successfully live, thrive, and mate".

This is why it's a very, very, VERY big deal when a (true) dragon changes alignment: that is basically that dragon looking at lives upon lives upon lives - DRAGON lives, in all their immense length - and deciding, against millennia of evidence to the contrary, that no, this was not the right idea.

4.) If a character has dragon blood, with that characters ancestors and past relatives being, let's say... Copper Dragons, giving that character Copper Dragon blood. If that character decided to further pursue his or her bloodline as a dragon through the way of Red Dragon Disciple, does that character morph into a Red Dragon anyways, or does the character morph into whatever dragon is in his or her blood?

Arya pretty much has this one covered: they become a Half-Dragon, not a full dragon, of the type their bloodline and ancestry is tied to; in the case of your example, a Copper Half-Dragon.

To add to this, there are extremely few examples, in any setting, of humanoids becoming dragons for long-term periods beyond basic polymorph effects. Most, like Faerun's Devil Dragon, were bonkers insane to begin with. The other exceptions are typically, again, already long-lived creatures who don't flinch quite as much at the prospect of a dragon's extended lifespan, elves or similar entities. I can't think of any examples, in any media, of a human or other short-lived race becoming a dragon if they aren't 1.) a powerful wizard who was functionally immortal anyway; 2.) just using a short-term effect like a polymorph spell, or hit with a Curse effect or something of that like; or 3.) already are or shortly become insane (such as the Norse legend of Fafnir, where a dwarf becomes so mad with greed driven by a cursed treasure that he becomes a dragon to guard it).

In understanding, those who tap into their dragon blood by means of magic are considered about 1/3 dragon and 2/3 their original race, while a guy born to one dragon and one human is genuinely a half dragon.

Yes and no.

The physical traits of a Dragon Disciple tend to be less pronounced. Compare the Dragon Disciple in the 3.5 DMG with the Half-Dragon in the Monster Manual. The Half-Dragon has green-black scaly skin, a visibly-draconic face with a slight muzzle, big ol' black dragon horns, jagged teeth, big reptilian hands and feet, and so forth. The Dragon Disciple has wings, some scales on her arms, claws on her hands and feet, and... that's really it. There's some variance for character design, of course - CD characters like to add horns, thanks to the horns widget, even on DDs - but most still don't go to the extent of the MM Half-Dragon's appearance. Heck, most of our actual applied-for Half-Dragons don't look that much like the MM one, I think only Khorigesh takes it that far.

However, mechanically, they ARE Half-Dragons, full stop. They have all the normal immunities of a Half-Dragon (sleep, paralysis, the element of their breath weapon, effects that target humanoids). They have the same ability score adjustments, natural armor, special abilities, etc., just spread out over ten levels. Their type changes to Dragon. Etc. etc. etc.

All in all, the confusion over the class being called RED Dragon Disciple but CD wanting to offer DDs of other types and other heritages was what led to the class name being changed (back) to just Dragon Disciple in the first place. NWN called it RDD because, in the original game, red dragon wings and firey breath were the only option available; CD and the haks we took the content from has been generous enough to provide mechanics to allow other colors, other immunities, and other attack elements.

[Ogre Time Yay]

Wow, thanks Edge,

Many of what you said goes with the character in question, and helps add a bit more detail to it all. Two major things that stick out to me in this information is the mentally insane aspect, and the ability for the dragon to carry memories over from past relatives. Thankfully the goal I'm looking at does not require the character to become a full blooded dragon, or even half for that matter, which gets rid of the problem of going insane... Again...
Thanks again!

[Edge]

It's actually listed as a bit of a curiosity as to whether or not half-dragons inherit their draconic parent's memories, though regardless what the answer is the end result is the same.

It's a big unknown primarily because of the lower intellectual capacity at birth of humanoids - if they DO inherit those memories, they quickly become muddled and forgotten, much like the experiences of normal infancy and early childhood, as the humanoid grows. Infant humanoid brains, even of naturally highly-intellectual races like elves and the bred-in natural inclination for higher intellectual ability granted by strong draconic heritage (read: the Half-Dragon's racial +2 INT), are simply not built to retain information long-term until age 5 or so (or the non-human equivalent).

So neither humanoid nor dragon can get a clear answer because by the time the half-blooded child is old enough to be asked and understand the question being asked, they've long since forgotten the information if it ever existed at all. So while there might be strong impressions at best, the main benefits of the racial memory - if it's passed to half-humanoids at all - would be lost.