Sorceror -- A Few Perks?

[Voice of Kerensky]

There's not a lot of sorcerors on the server, frankly, particularly of any notable level, and for a good reason: as it stands, they're pretty vastly inferior to wizards.

*Wizards can multi-class freely to a variety of very good prestige classes; by and large this is extremely difficult for a non-epic sorc due to the (lack of) spell progression.
*Wizards get 4 arcane bonus feats over the course of their leveling (5, 10, 15, 20)
*Wizards have, generally, a much more useful primary stat. More int means more skills, allowing for a wizard that can have a more diverse variety of RP and mechanical skills, particularly when multiclassing for skill dumps and the like. Cha is really only useful for the paladin/blackguard dip, and one of those is more or less impossible to do in a powerful fashion on CD.
*The much increased spell selection makes wizard's versatility very useful. You can plan your spellbook accurately for most dungeons. As these dungeons are at least somewhat balanced around what sort of buffs a party may have, sorceror has some very hard decisions to make. Quite frankly, you have to skip out on a lot of useful buff/party spells on sorceror, or significantly nerf your ability to blast.
*The ease of gaining +12 to primary stat in addition to the abundance of spell slot gear of equal value almost completely bridges the spells per day gap between wizard and sorceror, with the latter only being able to cast slightly more at most spell levels.

So let's get out of the way what we CAN'T do to help sorceror:

*Fixing the spells known system for multi classing is likely a no go. It involves switching over to an entirely feat based spell system, which can be rather buggy and does very strange things at times even if you do get it installed right (and installing it right on a pre-existing module of CD's scale is a nightmare).
*Adding to spells known per spell level. Unless I'm being really dumb, the progressions are hardcoded. I might be being dumb. >.>

So instead, let's start by addressing some of the disparities between sorceror and wizard:

1) Give sorceror base 4 skills/level. A wizard is still going to end up with way more, but this'll give your average sorceror a little more flexibility beyond the "need" skills. Hell, you might have enough skill points left to be able to take an extra RP skill or two that takes advantage of that high charisma.
2) Feats. Nevermind that wizard is getting more bonus feats in a pureclass scenario, wizard can multiclass to several neat arcane PrCs that give them all sorts of neat feats. Work in some sort of bonus feats for sorc.
3) Bonuses to arcane spellcasting levels and/or DCs Wizard has "easy" access to these in Red Wizard and War Wizard--why not give the natural caster a boost to this?
4) Slightly greater combat ability. This is one that wizard can blow sorceror away in with classes like Eldritch Knight, Spellsword, etc. This could be things like sorcerors starting with light armor and shield proficiencies (we certainly have enough pre-existing gear to justify it), to the ability to take some martial feats with some of the hypothetical bonus feats proposed above.

I'll touch some of these topics, like possible bonus feats/timing, later on.

[suddenperihelion]

May 26, 2015 22:37:30 GMT -5 psappho said:

So let's get out of the way what we CAN'T do to help sorceror:

*Fixing the spells known system for multi classing is likely a no go. It involves switching over to an entirely feat based spell system, which can be rather buggy and does very strange things at times even if you do get it installed right (and installing it right on a pre-existing module of CD's scale is a nightmare).

This can, and has, been done using NWNX on several servers. The NWNX implementation works reasonably well once it's done.

Getting it working will require NWNX-level work however: for practical purposes, it needs to be done by someone with full access to the server (otherwise I'd offer to do it myself).

[trylobyte]

Here's some rambling from our resident sorcerer expert.  I have a level 30 and a level 17 (+1 ECL) so I know my way around the class pretty well.

Sorcerer is strictly inferior to Wizard everywhere.

Compared to sorcerers, wizards get...
- A wider variety of spells
- Easy spell switching
- A more useful primary stat
- More skillpoints (because of their stat)
- More feats
- Better, easier multiclassing
- Nerf resistance*

A sorcerer's main advantages are...
- Large number of spells per day
- Don't need to pick spells in advance
- Can cast any spell they know at any time
- Don't need scrolls to learn higher-level spells

That's just the baseline NWN stuff.  CD adds a few wrinkles...
- Items often give so many spell slots that the difference between wizard and sorcerer is academic.
- CD has many new spells and changes to existing spells with varying levels of clarity and documentation.
- Blasting, a sorcerer's specialty, is impractical due to dungeon length.
- Fishing for ones vs. bosses (another sorcerer specialty) has been repeatedly nerfed (justly, but still).
- Wizards get Scribe Scroll for free, so any wizard can scribe spells that are normally difficult to acquire.

*By 'nerf resistance' I mean that if a spell gets nerfed due to being too good a Wizard can simply change out their spellbook immediately to compensate while a sorcerer needs to relevel, which can take a few days.


So sorcerers are strictly weaker than wizards.  How do we remedy this?  Well, that's a complicated question because sorcerers can easily be overpowered if bumped up too much or if put in the hands of a savvy player.  Additionally, fixing most of their problems and making them more unique and distinct from Wizards requires some heavy scripting and rewriting, and may require entire management systems CD doesn't want to use.

The most attractive example I've seen to making Sorcerers their own thing is Pathfinder's Bloodlines.  A Bloodline is selected on character creation and gives bonus feats, spells, and abilities to a sorcerer based on that bloodline's theme.  An efreeti bloodline sorcerer gets a lot of fire spells, fire resistance, and can eventually grant a Wish.  Verdant bloodlines gain a lot of plant-related spells and bonuses, eventually gaining several plant-related immunities.  It not only makes sorcerers more distinct from wizards but makes sorcerers different and diverse amongst themselves - A Protean bloodline transmuter is going to be very different compared to a Celestial-bloodline abjurer.  I'd love if something like this could be implemented, but it's a huge project and I'd understand if it weren't possible.  

[Atomic Twinkie]

I believe Vincent07 has stated a few times that he's working on a way to make Sorcerors able to multiclass efficiently, but it's not ever going to be a straightforward solution. You have to try out new things, see what works.

I know for a fact that blasting isn't necessarily a waste of time, in fact I've been in quite a few dungeons where effective placement of spells can be a god send, you just need to choose your timing, know when to cast and when to stand back. I've always viewed sorcerors as the jack of all trades, whereas Wizards are the specialist. Give a Wizard a job that he knows and he will outperform on almost every level compared to a sorceror of equal strength, but put a sorcerer in an unknown situation and they suddenly have more of an advantage - because they can change their tactics on the fly.

Honestly, with the addition of the capability to smoothly and efficiently multiclass, I would view sorcerors as more than a viable class - and when considering two pure class builds, Sorcerors stand up rather efficiently if you know how to play them. Give a Wizard a day to prepare and he'll be able to tap dance, sing, and have a rock concert with full light shows - if need be, but put him on the spot and he'll try to juggle, hit someone in the eye with a ball and sigh dejectedly whereas the sorceror will be pirouetting on cue.

Beyond that, I've seen sorcerors be social monsters because of their high charisma, they get the essentials, and then choose a skill or two that suits them socially, put some points in int for bonus skill points and boom, you've got someone that can tell you about the time they took out an entire camp of badgermole wrestlers with nothing but a rope, three baseballs and a turtleduck (truth withholding, of course).

[trylobyte]

May 30, 2015 7:12:52 GMT -5 Atomic Twinkie said:

Beyond that, I've seen sorcerors be social monsters because of their high charisma, they get the essentials, and then choose a skill or two that suits them socially, put some points in int for bonus skill points and boom, you've got someone that can tell you about the time they took out an entire camp of badgermole wrestlers with nothing but a rope, three baseballs and a turtleduck (truth withholding, of course).

This is what makes sorcerers very effective in quests with noncombat options.  Aelie can get, with items, a Persuade in the mid-30s with no ranks at all and, I believe, the highest Bluff score on the server because of that charisma bonus.  This would go even better if a sorc could multiclass into Arcane Trickster, where they get all the social skills as class skills.  Sorcs not needing to memorize spells in advance also makes them pretty solid in quests - You don't know what's coming ahead of time like you do with dungeons.  So they're definitely not Barbarian-tier bad, or even bad in general, just overshadowed in most areas.

[sinisteromnibus]

May 30, 2015 9:24:27 GMT -5 trylobyte said:

May 30, 2015 7:12:52 GMT -5 Atomic Twinkie said:

Beyond that, I've seen sorcerors be social monsters because of their high charisma, they get the essentials, and then choose a skill or two that suits them socially, put some points in int for bonus skill points and boom, you've got someone that can tell you about the time they took out an entire camp of badgermole wrestlers with nothing but a rope, three baseballs and a turtleduck (truth withholding, of course).

This is what makes sorcerers very effective in quests with noncombat options.  Aelie can get, with items, a Persuade in the mid-30s with no ranks at all and, I believe, the highest Bluff score on the server because of that charisma bonus.  This would go even better if a sorc could multiclass into Arcane Trickster, where they get all the social skills as class skills.  Sorcs not needing to memorize spells in advance also makes them pretty solid in quests - You don't know what's coming ahead of time like you do with dungeons.  So they're definitely not Barbarian-tier bad, or even bad in general, just overshadowed in most areas.

Barbarian-tier bad. I loled.

[Yaldabaoth]

As someone who plays a few sorcerers, the thing that really tends to hurt the most, in my opinion, is the lack of skillpoints.  Being a mage, you already have the obligatory concentration skill tax, and then you of course need spellcraft.  Unless you're a human, have a few points in INT, or both, then that's it, that's all you get.  Which means that it is really difficult to leverage your amazing charisma.  Add on to that, the fact that sorcerers only have one social skill as a class skill, and you start to see the problem.  Feats would be nice too, but skills are the main thing, in my opinion.

[trylobyte]

May 30, 2015 12:56:41 GMT -5 Yaldabaoth said:

As someone who plays a few sorcerers, the thing that really tends to hurt the most, in my opinion, is the lack of skillpoints.  Being a mage, you already have the obligatory concentration skill tax, and then you of course need spellcraft.  Unless you're a human, have a few points in INT, or both, then that's it, that's all you get.  Which means that it is really difficult to leverage your amazing charisma.  Add on to that, the fact that sorcerers only have one social skill as a class skill, and you start to see the problem.  Feats would be nice too, but skills are the main thing, in my opinion.

Knowledge Arcana is also required as a mage if you ever intend to hit epic, since you need it for epic spell slots.