CD Dungeons

[Vincent07]

I'm quite aware.  Gnolls was designed with large numbers of NPCs in mind.

But not a group of 8+ players.  The engine has its limits, though I've personally never run into many lag issues there.  And I have cut the NPC numbers down once already.

Though, it occurs to me that Crusade could do with less impact vfx.

[darthweasel]

I have always subscribed to the philosophy of increasing HP significantly over AC which will make people of appropriate level unable to hit her.

[tarriel]

Raw health increase is rarely a good balance mechanic.

I've been building bosses and boss encounters for my resident nwn2 server for years now. If a fight was being deemed unbalanced, it needed severe study before I made alterations. There was a case in which the "increase HP" came up, lets look at it:

The fight was one of three "major" boss monsters on the server, namely the middle child: Ashardalon.

Ashardalon is a gargantuan red dragon. Well, franken-dragon, made from Ashardalon's remains and various substitute parts. It currently has 76 AC and in the region of 140,000 HP. This may seem a lot, but our server goes to level 40, and damage really ramps up at that stage.

Ashardalon is primarily a caster, relying on the dragonkin attendants for melee interference in phases 1 & 2. Having Sorc levels, the spells are limited in variety, but have a fair number of uses. The fight was going too easy, especially in phase 3, where a section collapses, forcing all players to engage Ashardalon in melee range in a small  arena. He was simply dying too quickly. Now, my point:

I upped his HP. A LOT. I think I bumped his Con by 10 and gave him Epic Toughness III. Which on a boss equated to an additional 100,000 HP. This made the fight last much longer, but failed to address the difficulty. By Phase 3, Ashardalon has burned all his spells, as the AI uses them stupidly. So he was a poor melee fighter punchbag. 

After a time of testing, I established a new phase three, Ashardalon flies away, and comes back down in the arena (This is actually a -new- monster with the same model/ name with a hugely powerful melee build, he's a dragon/blackguard) that they fight in melee range. Same health, same AC, but much more melee oriented skillset, that buffs before the players can rush him.

I rambled a bit here, but felt like throwing my thoughts in. 

[darthweasel]

I can see those points, but I have been on the receiving end of the attacks of a monster that was buffed (first to deal with one or two powerbuilds) to levels that were basically unhittable by a level 20 WM build with a +4 sword. This was on a server where though level 40 was allowed they pretty much set it at 20 because you could not level up past it without a DM giving you the blessing to do so. I do not mind losing a fight IG.. I do mind watching someone who should be at least competent at that level for the fight wiffing away all day while the enemy nails him to the wall.



How relevant that is to this particular issue I do not know.

[Vincent07]

I endeavor to avoid that scenario.  Encounters should be challenging for an at-level group of a reasonable size. There should be some risk of failure, and a decent reward for the given challenge.

[enarian123]

Sept 4, 2015 11:57:34 GMT -5 Edge said:

It's probably more accurate to say that dungeons are balanced around the stereotypical four-man party of Warrior, Sneak, Priest, Mage, for the appropriate level range. Though Sneaks do kind of get the short end of the stick regardless due to all the undead, constructs, etc. around.

Sneaks do have fewer options against these enemies.  However, CD has a ton of options to help them if they look around.    I'm a sneak and I punk both for about 60 a pop.   

[sinisteromnibus]

Sept 9, 2015 10:41:13 GMT -5 enarian123 said:

Sept 4, 2015 11:57:34 GMT -5 Edge said:

It's probably more accurate to say that dungeons are balanced around the stereotypical four-man party of Warrior, Sneak, Priest, Mage, for the appropriate level range. Though Sneaks do kind of get the short end of the stick regardless due to all the undead, constructs, etc. around.

Sneaks do have fewer options against these enemies.  However, CD has a ton of options to help them if they look around.    I'm a sneak and I punk both for about 60 a pop.   

Bane of Enemies =/= sneak attacks. As a ranger you're not really a 'sneak' in the traditional sense because your damage is not reliant on sneak attacks (which are disabled vs. constructs and undead). Unfortunately on CD there isn't any way to get around that massive loss of damage for any heavy rogue variant. Elf does as well as he does because Bane of Enemies is a damage bonus that never goes away, and this isn't really an option to be found on CD so much as a byproduct of effective character building.

CD has a ton of options to help keep rogue-based builds from being completely useless against undead and constructs but none that allow them to be as effective as they are against fleshy targets. Yes there are maces and holy buffs for your weapons, but at the end of the day an additional 2d6 from holy oil and a 50% bludgeon damage increase on your base do not account for the loss of your sneak attacks unless your build has already taken the weaknesses to undead into consideration so that you don't lose 8d6 or more of damage. Further, with a build like Elf's your Bane stacks with any other weapon buff so that against undead your damage is still far superior to anything a pure rogue or heavy sneak class could count on.

That said...60 a hit on undead is about what Mouse manages so maybe the damage is more equalized than I thought. Her damage on sneakable targets, though is...well, a ridiculous amount higher than 60.

Anyway, damage aside, I would like some of the lower dungeons to be more sneak-friendly like gnolls is. Having an effective scout in that dungeon is the difference between needing just two people to clear the place and needing five or six. I'd also like to see more dungeons with containers that really require you to have a rogue along...or traps. There's a reason we see fewer pure rogues or heavy rogue builds than fighter builds that just dip into 2 or 3 rogue. I think if there were more places at lower levels for these more scouting/lockpicking/trapdisarming builds to shine the server would see more of them in general, which would be cool.

[trylobyte]

Sept 9, 2015 12:38:18 GMT -5 sinisteromnibus said:

Anyway, damage aside, I would like some of the lower dungeons to be more sneak-friendly like gnolls is. Having an effective scout in that dungeon is the difference between needing just two people to clear the place and needing five or six. I'd also like to see more dungeons with containers that really require you to have a rogue along...or traps. There's a reason we see fewer pure rogues or heavy rogue builds than fighter builds that just dip into 2 or 3 rogue. I think if there were more places at lower levels for these more scouting/lockpicking/trapdisarming builds to shine the server would see more of them in general, which would be cool.

The other big reason you don't see a lot of rogues is because the grind for them is pure hell.  At early levels they're often forced to solo (as most players are) and that's tough for a rogue with their stats - They've only got average AB and HP, their Dex and Tumble can't hope to make up for the lost armor of full plate and a tower shield for another dozen levels, and their bad Will saves are hit hard by the Fear auras low-level bosses commonly use.  UMD, or a friend helping you, is all but required.  As they finally claw their way out of the low levels, they run straight into the mid-level undead wall - Nearly all the popular mid-level dungeons prominently feature undead and the only one that really needs their services is Witchlords.  Even then, most rogues I've talked to don't especially enjoy being a glorified pixie familiar that sneaks around, disarms traps, opens locks, and tickles enemies while other people do all the 'real work.'  There are certainly rogue-friendly (well, rogue-friendlier) dungeons out there in this range, but they either suffer from being hard to get to, having a low payoff, or have some other reason people don't go to them (like the orc cave with good XP, traps, locks, lots of mobs to fight...  and the shamans who spam Iron Horn and KD half the party every round).  It takes a very dedicated sneak to reach the payoff point of King's Forest orcs and ogre lord's redoubt where they can finally get some breathing space (though they will still gnash their teeth at the constructs in the latter).  By then they've generally given up.

More than one high-level rogue player has told me that the best way to make a rogue on CD is to level up as another class then rebuild into it at about level 14-15, since that's the point where you'll generally stop feeling useless.  I agree that we need more options to encourage people to make, and more importantly keep playing, rogues, and having a good dungeon or two for them in the mid levels would go a long way towards this.

[Vincent07]

Hopefully my revamping of a number of the Semberholme dungeons will provide more rogue-friendly avenues for exploration at mid levels.  

In particular:
Green Valley
Bugbear tomb
Drow Treehouse
Sember Trolls

I also have a mid-level lizardfolk ruin in the works.

[Kymus]

Just sharing my personal experience here, having a rogue main.

Traorin is a Fighter 1/Rogue 11. IMO he's rather strong, having soloed the King's Forest Orc Cave twice yesterday (which given, was NOT easy, and I went through the second time just to get my rapier that got dropped in one of the huts due to a full inventory (>_<)).

He's got an amulet (forget the name) that summons a skeleton chieftain, which is of help (though I've found that it's not the necessity I thought it was). Also useful is the heavy focus on UMD (plus skill focus: UMD) so spells like displacement and icy scales prevent him from taking damage most of the time. I think the only thing that makes him different from a pure build rogue is that he uses a tower shield for extra AC (though lately I've been going without it and just dual wielding rapiers since his AC is so good). Spell casters can wreak havoc on him, so Spell Mantle and Globe of Invulnerability help (and finding items that cast these for you aren't rare), or just sneak up to the mages and kill them before they cast anything (when there's three of them, though, that can get tricky). Weapon choice may make a difference as well. I've found a number of great rapiers; not sure on what it's like for those using a kukri or other small weapon.

I wouldn't say that playing him has been hard. I think it's just a matter of having the right tactics and finding what the best way is to deal with a situation. Having a strong summon with you (the Hunting Horn helps a lot in the low levels, and it's so common that you can have an endless supply) means you can rely less on tactics and do more fighting. A dex-based rogue can get their AC up there along with their AB, and then from there, it's a matter of killing mages before their spells kill you, or keeping up on your health for when you get crit'd by a large creature.

Just my 2 cents.

[Edge]

Weapon choice may make a difference as well. I've found a number of great rapiers; not sure on what it's like for those using a kukri or other small weapon.

As the player of a small-size rogue (/arcane trickster), there's an amazing array of daggers in the loot, a less impressive selection of shortswords but a few good ones out there, a couple good kukris and handaxes, and some decent maces and whips. Exotic proficiency for kukris, kamas, and whips is kind of a must, just given the limited options for weapon types that can be dual-wielded if you're small size (only daggers, kukris, and kamas can be used as off-hand weapons for small creatures without extra penalty).

[ClockworkMayhem]

Sept 11, 2015 7:08:04 GMT -5 Kymus said:

Just sharing my personal experience here, having a rogue main.

[...]

I wouldn't say that playing him has been hard. I think it's just a matter of having the right tactics and finding what the best way is to deal with a situation. 

THIS.

I played Mouse as a rogue/SD for a year before her rebuild, and she kicked a decent amount of ass. The only reason she got the rebuild was due to a quest that made the newer build make a lot more sense for her, and she still is, despite the investment in bard, decently heavy in rogue/assassin.

If you pay attention to what you're doing, yes, you can solo as a rogue. But if you don't want to invest that time and effort into exploring tactics, then you're going to have a bad time no matter what you build.