Remove OOC information

[ClockworkMayhem]

Jun 1, 2014 17:49:52 GMT -5 Darvins said:

And yes to use your own example, there is a huge difference between a level 1 and a level 6. Or between a level 3 and a level 8 one that frankly would be noticable. Further want to know what the most common thing I've seen over the years, is new characters who come in and start poking the epics, knowing nothing can be done to them in return. Who will ignore the fact that as a level six they are cheeking and insulting the level 20+ and just don't care, because they feel immune to what that person could do to them in response. I've seen it far more often done that way, where the new character will come in and claim to have seen and done it all already, than anything that might be done in reverse. It has nothing to do with CR, and frankly my view is, if I don't believe something is a problem don't change it.

The powerful character's don't need to check the CR rating to feel confident they can beat most people up, they already know it.

To be frank PvP here is pointless anyway so don't worry about it, PvP achieves nothing for the most part.

To offer a counterpoint to your example from earlier - my fiance? He's a martial arts expert. He's also a skinny little bastard. People pick fights with him, despite his confidence (and I promise you, he exudes it) because he's short and he's skinny. People don't just "sense" these things most of the time.

The way someone carries themselves is still a matter of RP, not CR. Does a real person see your CR floating above your head? Nope. They see you. The way you carry yourself isn't indicated by CR rating.

As for "The powerful characters don't need to check the CR rating"? No, but they do. Because if you've been keeping up with this thread, you'd understand that was my experience. I've left out names and specifics as not to call anyone out, but when it has happened to me (on two characters, now, and to a few friends' characters right in front of me), it was one of these "powerful" characters. And the other thing I noticed? They don't pick the same fights with people who are on equal footing.

I offer you a challenge, since you think so highly of CR's ability to portray this information: provide me with one example of something CR gives you that cannot be portrayed in RP, through your character's words or actions, or through descriptive emotes.

[ThayanKnight]

I don't think anyone is saying that the CR system trumps RP.

[ClockworkMayhem]

Actually, it seems like that's exactly what Darvins is saying. And if it's not, then perhaps he's suggesting it's just easier to check CR than to RP this stuff. In which case...why play on a roleplay server? If the CR is what's important to portray this sort of thing, why not an action server? I'm sure there are servers exclusively for PvP where you wouldn't have to RP at all.

[Darvins]

Your making an assumption there, an unfair one. There is a simple easy none Metagaming way to tell such things. Your character is someone they don't know, the powerful character near them is one they have spent years around. (Real Time Years) they know the other guy is powerful from Real time years worth of roleplay, they don't know your guy, they are unproven to them. Guess what, it's not Metagaming to respect the guy you have known for years over the new person, it may speak of a dickish Character but it doesn't need to come from Metagaming. To put it bluntly, I dare say every one of my Epic Characters except maybe my first, has been on an adventure or two at some point with every character over level 17 and many under level 17 at this point. They know what they are capable of and what they are not. If they haven't been on a trip with someone, they are going to suspect them of being new, and I do not need the CR system to tell me that.

I'd suggest maybe asking why the character is so aggresive to yours, but you hate getting told such things oocly, which leads to situations like this to be frank I find. Where an IC encounter leads to OOC bad feelings.

And I am saying it can be a useful rough guide, alongside the role play, one that can happily avoid someone having to endlessly repeat their achievements every time new players or characters arrive. because after a while that becomes damned dull. Or having to state 'Stands with an easy air of confidence gained through' *yawn* everytime you log on an epic. I am saying it can be a handy rough guide without granting specific information, that a level list may do. (The aforementioned 'Blackguard' reveal)

[ClockworkMayhem]

I don't think I'm being unfair at all - I'm going by what you said. And yeah, I do still think that assuming that everyone you meet is new still shows a lack of that suspension of disbelief important to RP. And why do you need an ooc "useful rough guide" when your RP should be enough? Why is an endless repetition of the things you've done even necessary? Do you do that to people you meet in real life? Things come up in conversation or they don't. Forcing it is silly.

And yeah, I do hate being told these things oocly. Why? Because my character should learn them in character. But I'm sure you could find some excuse as to why a high level only picks on low-levels that's perfectly in character, so perhaps I should just save my breath. I never said I had any bad feelings; I just noticed the poor behavior and let it go. It's simply relevant to the discussion, so I brought it up.

[trylobyte]

Frankly, the only concerns I'm seeing regarding CR all factor into PvP.  This server isn't what I'd call PvP-happy - I've seen meaningful PvP exactly once in all my years here, and it was a DM event trying to capture a PC who had tried to assassinate a nobleman.  And guess what?  The person who captured them was at least six levels below them despite it being DM-supervised mechanical PvP, so CR didn't factor into it there.  In most places that people gather PvP isn't even possible anyway, and almost all of it that I see is consensual for-fun PvP in the Arena, or IC conflict resolution.  So just don't worry about PvP at all - It's less common than half-vampire half-dragons characters.

[Balkoth]

Two minor thoughts:

1, CR is no more artificial than the other rules of the *game* being played.  You can RP an 20 strength half-orc as being massively muscled and immensely skilled at melee combat, but if he's a level 4 fighter with mundane gear then he's going to whiff at things a level 10 human fighter with +3 gear that started with 14 strength will easily hit.  That's likely an extra 9-10 AB from levels/feats/weapon enhancement alone, not even looking at more Strength on gear.  It doesn't matter how convincing your RP is or how fervently you want your level 4 fighter to be a master of melee combat, he's still pitiful next to the level 10 fighter.

I'm curious -- would you say the half orc RPing as being immensely skilled at melee combat is good RP because it matches the player's vision of the character or bad RP because it cannot be backed up in game terms?

2, if anything I worry more about losing the effect list since different servers often had weird properties on enemies that you wouldn't expect -- which is purely a mechanical issue.  Why are these bandits immune to Death Magic?  Dunno.  Why is that Demi-lich vulnerable to Divine damage?  Dunno.  Why is that Red Dragon 50% immune to Electrical damage?  Dunno.  I'm not saying that's necessarily the case here but it's one of my biggest fears on a server that tries to hide effects -- because weird stuff happens and trying to read the scrolling combat log with a party of players attacking a group of enemies is impossible.

I remember an amusing situation on another server where a builder made a prismatic dragon with high reflex saves, Improved Evasion, immunity to level 4 spells and under...and massive vulnerability to cold.  Except the only level 5+ spell that deals Cold damage is Cone of Cold which was simply evaded and Ice Storm is level 4.  I pointed this out to the builder who said "Oops" and fixed it.  But if I had not been able to see the cold vulnerability there would have been no way to know there was a problem because the builder wanted cold damage to be used but set it up so that was impossible for a caster.

On top of that, this server has minimized spell visuals -- which means if you hide both the Shadow Shield visual AND the examine effect then that seems a bit weird because there's no way to tell off-hand.

[ClockworkMayhem]

Alright. First, I'm going to address your curiosity - I'm not judging someone's roleplay. I never mentioned "good" roleplay from "bad" roleplay - only metagaming. Trylobyte brought up "bad" roleplaying. If they're playing to their vision of the character, I see no problem with this. Even at level 4, they're going to have some skill that the average person is unlikely to have - that's why they adventure instead of baking bread or farming. Sure, they're not as skilled as the level 10, but they're skilled, and they're strong, and I'm not going to jump on their case for being a bad roleplayer because someone else can kick their ass. You're confusing the issue.

As for CR being "no more artificial than the rules of the *game* being played"? I disagree. The point of roleplay is to eliminate as many of those artificial constructs as possible, so that they are not barriers to the suspension of disbelief. Due to my experiences here, I've found CR to be one of these barriers. Is it an insurmountable one? Of course not. But does that mean I wouldn't be happier if it weren't there? Nope.

Now, onto the effects list. Just as it's unrealistic in real life to know every trick an opponent has up his or her sleeve by looking at them, I find that looking at the list of effects is just as unrealistic. Certainly, in your example of the prismatic dragon, knowing that was helpful - it was a mistake on the DMs part and was corrected. Yes, the combat log goes by quickly and it's hard to tell from that. But honestly, I still don't even bother with this - I can still see what's doing damage and what isn't when the numbers appear over their heads (still artificial, but even I understand that yes, it's a game, and at least some indicator is necessary) and when they drop from uninjured to barely injured, then to injured, etc. Hiding the spell visuals is, to my knowledge, mostly by choice; the only things I've really noticed a difference in when I don't type /novfx is that stoneskin and barkskin don't show up, when I've been told they do on other servers. Not sure what they'd look like, otherwise, as this is my first server, so I doubt I'm missing much. I figure much like the Icy Scales spell, which covers you in ice, it would probably make you look covered in stone or bark. Big deal.

If my character is inclined to pick a fight with someone, they do so because they're in the mood to pick a fight, or someone's provoked them somehow. Not because my character is more powerful, and I've checked to see how prepared they are. My characters that are inclined to doing so will do their best to prepare for anything; if they miss something, they suffer. That happens.

Now, if this doesn't suit your style of play, that's fine by me - to be blunt, it was never a player I aimed to convince, but the staff, as the decision ultimately rests with them. Engaging in debate with other players on this is certainly fine, but it does kind of leave one with the idea that because they're new, and their experiences have not been the same as those who have been here a long time, their experiences mean less and are easily swept aside. Thankfully, I haven't gotten that feeling from the staff - just this debate with other players. So with that, I'll simply withdraw, because at this point, I'm only repeating myself, as is nearly every other person to continue this. By now, I've either made my point, or I haven't.

[Fire Wraith]

Pathfinder uses ECL, too.  It's pretty similar in that respect.

CR is an entirely NWN construct though, and mostly just boils down to "way above my level"/"roughly close to my level"/"way below my level".

It's an element of the game engine.  And as for qualms about CR and PVP, here's the thing - and just so everyone is clear:

We're not balancing for PVP.

We're balancing the game based generally on PvE, because PVP is not a primary focus for CD, and because trying to do both is something so difficult that even a full time paid staff would have trouble with it (which we are not).  This doesn't mean we never allow PVP, though we are a bit careful with it, partly because in our view it makes for a fairly poor means of conflict resolution in NWN.  We also tend to not like the way that we've sometimes seen it used as a means of enforcing roleplay in the past - i.e., "I don't like your roleplay, I'm going to PVP you until you stop", which leads to all sorts of problems.  We do like conflict, but we prefer that it be OOCly cooperative on some level - that is, agreed to by both parties.

Now, as to the way level and deadliness play into proper RP, there are several ways to look at it, and several situations that can occur, and ways that both having a general knowledge of someone's level is good, and ways it's bad.

For instance:

Two characters run into each other, get into an argument, and fight.  Turns out one of them was level 30, the other was level 5, so it's over very quickly.

Viewpoint A: This is proper roleplay, and it would have been bad had the level 5 acted with OOC knowledge of the level of the other.
Viewpoint B: The level 5 should have known that the other was more powerful, based on clues and hints that would be visibly apparent.

The converse situation is two characters running into one another, and the lower level taunting the higher level, knowing that they're oocly disinclined (or otherwise unable, laws/etc) to fight, despite the massive level imbalance.



Now, we can argue the difference of characters who are well-known versus those who aren't, characters that are obviously dangerous (the Hulk) versus those who may not be quite so obvious (say, Black Widow).  But given the limitations of NWN, we really can't account for both.  So what does that mean?

Well, it means we're going to have to decide based on another measure.  And in my case, my inclination is towards giving people a reason to avoid unnecessarily getting into fights that they'd rather avoid.

[Darvins]

Jun 1, 2014 18:50:39 GMT -5 ClockworkMayhem said:

I don't think I'm being unfair at all - I'm going by what you said. And yeah, I do still think that assuming that everyone you meet is new still shows a lack of that suspension of disbelief important to RP. And why do you need an ooc "useful rough guide" when your RP should be enough? Why is an endless repetition of the things you've done even necessary? Do you do that to people you meet in real life? Things come up in conversation or they don't. Forcing it is silly.

And yeah, I do hate being told these things oocly. Why? Because my character should learn them in character. But I'm sure you could find some excuse as to why a high level only picks on low-levels that's perfectly in character, so perhaps I should just save my breath. I never said I had any bad feelings; I just noticed the poor behavior and let it go. It's simply relevant to the discussion, so I brought it up.

*sigh* point is, that, okay here is what I mean by the ability to quite happily judge based only on knowing one of the characters involved. My own Valar can't stand Aesa, she's had more than one run in with the Character, will likely again. For all that, if she saw Aesa in a argument with a person she has never seen before? She'd lay good money on the result being Aesa slaughters the person involved without breaking a sweat. She can't stand Aesa, she'd not shed any tears of the woman died, and for all that? She'd bet on Aesa because she's seen Aesa in a fight.

On the otherhand, what if it was Aesa in a disagreement with say I don't know... Elf, and the two where looking set to come to blows.. she'd not know what the result would be. This has nothing to do with CR's or even her preference, she doesn't get on with Elf either, but her knowledge of the characters involved. If my char has not seen your character fight, why the heck should they assume anything other than they are newly minted adventurers, and have not seen some of the stuff the more experianced have. Why should she assume that they have faced some of the crazy stuff she has in her time, gone through the stuff she has. Why should anyone else?

Lastly You don't need CR's to judge these things, CR's are the least useful example, and frankly it doesn't cut down on Metagaming to remove them, because if people really wanna Metagame, they can go by the fact they've been playing that character as their main for X amount of years and the other character hasn't. CR doesn't change that, what it might change is maybe give the new person a chance to go 'Woooah wait a minute maybe my character shouldn't be being a dick to this person, they are big and scary and show the signs of having seen some scary fights. 

[Arya]

So would a number of others!

*Bluff check alert.*

~Arya

[Arya]

In all seriousness, if this sort of scripting, or any of the scripting is not too much of a hassle for the scripters, I think this deserves a trial run still.  It is nothing that considerably hampers people's freedoms on the server, as far as I can tell.  Give it a shot, and if there really is a major drawback to it, things can be fixed.  The worse that happens as far as I can see is PvP happy people might get a horrible karmic backlash, or some gold gets lost from time to time.  

At least it has been tried and erred over no attempt to give it a shot at all.  Especially since trying it does not do considerable damage to players. :-)  

My new thoughts!

~Arya

[Yaldabaoth]

I would like to point out something.  We now have the ability to edit character descriptions at will, whenever we want.  What does this mean? The people who desire characters to be open books are free to put "Rogue 6/Ranger 3/Shadowdancer 3, Level 12 Elf" at the bottom of their description if they desire everyone to know this.  Those that would rather not volunteer such information need not be forced to, if we eliminate the log in information and CR examine.

Bam.  Easy compromise.

[aazonis]

Without even touching the subject of metagaming, this is a purely mechanical argument.

Please, please do not remove the effect list on characters. It makes playing a buffing mage significantly more difficult in an artificial way. Without the effects displayed you have no way of knowing when effects expire and need to be re-buffed. This isn't OOC knowledge either (Other than the few spells that have visible effects). A mage character has an intimate understanding and ability to know when their spells are still in effect. They feel and know when spells are dispelled or expire.

[Garage Trashcan]

Jun 2, 2014 5:40:20 GMT -5 aazonis said:

Without even touching the subject of metagaming, this is a purely mechanical argument.

Please, please do not remove the effect list on characters. It makes playing a buffing mage significantly more difficult in an artificial way. Without the effects displayed you have no way of knowing when effects expire and need to be re-buffed. This isn't OOC knowledge either (Other than the few spells that have visible effects). A mage character has an intimate understanding and ability to know when their spells are still in effect. They feel and know when spells are dispelled or expire.

Or they could just ask, "Hey, are everyone's wards still okay? Does anything need refreshing?"


Yaldabaoth

I would like to point out something. We now have the ability to edit character descriptions at will, whenever we want. What does this mean? The people who desire characters to be open books are free to put "Rogue 6/Ranger 3/Shadowdancer 3, Level 12 Elf" at the bottom of their description if they desire everyone to know this. Those that would rather not volunteer such information need not be forced to, if we eliminate the log in information and CR examine.



Bam. Easy compromise.

This is actually a really good idea.