Some (Relatively) Brief Thoughts From an Ex-New Player

[Balkoth]

I began playing on this server a little under a month and played here for about two weeks, at which point I stopped playing.  I was originally going to make a more detailed thread but couldn't work up the energy to do it and wound up saying nothing.  I was thinking earlier today, though, and decided I owed it to Fire Wraith especially and a few other people who were extremely helpful and patient to mention why I decided to stop playing here.

I'll say up front that I certainly realize I'm not the target audience of this server because I, quite frankly, don't care about RP at all.  That doesn't mean I dislike RP, it means I care about story and adventure regardless if it's IC or OOC.  If the server is interesting and there are things happening that are fun, I don't care if it's IC or not.  I play an adventurer, that means I want to adventure -- which could be anything from trying to find a long-lost temple in order to restore it to tracking down a dragon and slaying it to participating in some political drama to figuring out a murder mystery.  But I generally like *doing* things most of the time, not just chatting about my day, if that makes sense.

The Good
- A lot of the areas are gorgeous.  Seriously.  Believe me when I say I'm not normally the type of person to just sit there and drink in an area, but I went BEYOND that to actually take screenshots of some areas like this:



- The people are extremely helpful.  Well, I can't vouch for everyone, to be fair, but everyone I had contact with was quite nice.  Particular mentions to Fire Wraith for amazing patience, Dagesh, and someone who plays a very orderly cleric of Helm who I unfortunately do not remember the name of off-hand.

- Area layout was generally quite interesting and not just the "tunnel with mobs in the way" that you often find.

- Some of the commands like "/leap" were impressive.

- Some of the mobs had some kind of health percentage sign, which I haven't seen elsewhere.  How did you do that, if you don't mind me asking?

The Bad
- Experience.  Experience experience experience.  Experience.  Specifically at level 8+.  I completely understand that you don't want players to arrive on server and a week later be caught up with people who have been here for years.  I completely understand that you want progression to generally be about characters rather than a mechanical race to level cap or something.

But at the same time, I think you've gone too far the other way.  I randomly did a check one night and was thrilled when I saw this:



The fact that I was ONLY the lowest level PC by 2 levels and most other people were ONLY 6ish levels above me seemed MUCH better than average.  The thing is, and it's easy to forget this, it's not fun to be useless.  For reference, I'm sitting here with +2 gear at level 9 with Cure Critical Wounds potions being used in emergencies only due to cost and that level 14 is running around with 5-6 more AC, 6-7 more AB, 70-80% more HP, better saves, and likely plentiful access to more powerful potions (if they're a warrior type).  And that level 14 is still below the median level AND average level, so just imagine what those level 16+ characters are like.

I don't want to be dragged along on DM events and shepherded because I'll die constantly without attention or be forced to hide in the back.  I'm certainly not expecting to be the strongest character in the group, I don't even mind being the weakest.  But I want to be able to actually contribute something rather than be a complete liability.

And this isn't a problem I can solve in a few days or work or even a week of work.  Even if I was level 10, I would need 12000 non monster XP to just reach level 13.  I recall reading how the XP ticker gives 300 XP per day in around 4 hours of being active.  So if I spent 4 hours being active each day then I could hit level 13 in...40 days.  120 hours of playing just to get the XP ticker bonuses.

When I realized this problem, I decided to see if I might be able to attend a scheduled DM event that would even be open to me.  At the time, there was nothing.  I just looked again and apparently a single event was held on June 5th that I could have gone to if I was still playing here at the time.  But that's it.  Quests are shot too as you'll see below.  So I'm left without any reasonable options here to actually play with the vast majority of players here.

- Quests.  I killed the bandit leader in the sewers and got 200 XP as I recall. I spent like an hour and a half exploring every inch of the Haunted Halls and finding a painting.  My reward?  Less gold than the painting vendors for and...drumroll...200 XP.  I've also done the goblin eggs and wizard's tower quests.  400 XP each as I recall.  I couldn't manage the bandit hideout for the mirror (more below).  These XP amounts are pitiful.  My original idea was that I could do one quest per level to get the non-monster XP required to level.  So, in theory...

Bandit Leader lets you hit 9.
Haunted Halls lets you hit 10.
Eggs lets you hit 11.
Wizard's tower lets you hit 12.
Mirror lets you hit 13.

And then at that point I at least have +3 gear and am high enough level to be able to contribute reasonably to most groups.  But that plan was completely shot with the fact the quests give an incredibly tiny amount of experience.  I've done all but Mirror and am still well short of 10.

I originally thought the point of the quests was to prevent people from finding an efficient spot to grind mobs for fast XP and instead force them to travel the world and go different places...but that evidently isn't the case at all.

- Lack of information for new players, such as:

Shops apparently have multiple tiers.  There's no reason a new player would think this and I would never have returned to a shopkeeper at a higher level solely to see if he offered something different.  I only found out this existed because I couldn't figure out how to kill trolls here and someone told me to buy a fire damage weapon -- which led to me asking "Er, from where?" and the person explaining that a better store would be available from the weaponsmith on my next level if I went back to see him.  Never would have guessed.

Having to look up maps of Cormyr to try to figure out where to go for some quests because there are no signs or NPCs who can give directions to something your character should know IC.  I understand Fire Wraith has updated at least some of the signs as a result of our conversation on this matter but things like that could be a problem.

Fishing for area transitions.  Especially in forest areas, trying to figure out where an area transition is hidden due to lack of map note.  Originally I just made my own map notes...lots of them...and then discovered these disappear on server reset.  I understand Fire Wraith is at least considering enabling map notes for those and hopes to have "seamless" area transitions enabled in the future, but it was/is a problem for new players.

- Excess areas.  I mentioned before that many of the areas are beautiful.  There also seem to be way too many of them at times with no apparent use, an example would be the forest near Semberholme.  So many areas that consist of "yet more forest" or "lake area #3."  Most of them look great, mind you, but it feels like there's just a ton of empty areas that serve no purpose and like half of them could be eliminated without losing anything.

Conclusion
The actual moment I quit came while trying to do the bandit mirror quest in an attempt to be able to hit level *10.*  This was my third attempt at doing so, trying to figure out ways to survive things like a DC 19 Slay Living (wound up using potions of Constitution for the +2 fort and Intelligence for the another 1 bonus from spellcraft plus buying a +2 fort ring).  You see, all of a sudden every spawn consisted of a level 13+ cleric and 11+ mage (or the other way around, forget) along with 4+ bandits.  And it turns out these spellcasters are happy to dispel you as well.  Massive step up in difficulty from previous quests, especially considering these were just trash mobs, not a boss or even sub-boss.  Even being level 10 would have made no difference, I'd get a whole 1 AB and 1 Reflex.

Maybe the next tier of gear at level 11 would be enough but that was another full level away AFTER I hit level 10.  And so I sat there stuck.  The next quest I could do was impossible for me, there were no DM events listed as coming up (or even recently happening) that I could participate in, and it would take me another 13+ hours of the XP ticker just to hit level 10.  So I said "That's it, this just isn't worth it" and haven't logged on since.

So apologies to the people I mentioned who were extremely helpful and very patient, but I just couldn't justify continuing to play here.  I know the server as a whole actually has a very good population, but I very much doubt you're going to attract many new players with some of the current policies.  Best of luck to you all regardless and happy gaming.

[Ogre Time Yay]

I half agree with you... Mostly on the matter that it's not fun to be a low level character. Your character often lags behind in group outings with no real way of explaining it in-character, and wrestling with rats for a week straight gets tedious after awhile, that part I can understand. Moving on though, let's see if I can hit on all topics brought up here... I'm not the sort of person who will hop on a forum for the specific reason to attempt to make you think you're wrong, but here's my view on things (the first part of this is something you'll likely see coming from a mile away... Here it comes...).

Everyone has to go through it at first.
Hell, sometimes you'll get the occasional character that makes a smart remark about the stench your character gives off from being in the sewers so long, or some might even make fun of them for not being able to take down a single orc, I've been through that at least. But the reason I say this is because starting out on this server, while rough, can be alot harder...

I use to play on a server taking place in Cormyr some time ago, forgot what it's called... "Forgotten Realms Cormyr" or something. On that server it would take you months to get to level 9, and level 9 felt like it was a -big- thing on there. Not only that... But you also mentioned that you hate lagging behind while in groups for the sake of seeming useless. You'll find that the majority of players on this server recognize your characters level (despite the few I mentioned above) and aren't going to judge you if you can't tank a platoon of ogres right off the bat. That said, if you ever do give this server a shot again, go on group hunts, don't be intimidated by them just because you cannot contribute to the group as much as some others, this is always going to be the case at first. I hate to be that one guy who advertises an in game group (especially since it is a group owned by one of my characters), but there is an Academy on the server called the White Cloak Academy made specifically to recruit all players under the level of 16, and help train them up to the level of 16 by offering them RP opportunity, taking them out on numerous group adventures, allowing them to participate in DM run quests for the White Cloaks, offering the player a free place to rest at in the city, and best of all your character is not gonna be over shadowed by them, because once they reach level 16 that character leaves the academy to go do their own thing.

Stepping away from that certain mention however, another thing I agree with you on is that you shouldn't have to sit in Arabel Central and have pointless conversation for the sake of waiting on the 300 XP the ticker gives... So don't. Seriously though, if you see a group massing up to go do something like an orc raid, it doesn't matter what level you are, just tag along man.
You may not believe it, but alot of the players who get these group raids started are folks who just want to get to know other characters, and in turn, the player who controls that character... It's a win-win situation. You really won't even need to rely on the Quests planted on this server to get anywhere neither if you follow this strategy.

Let's see, what'd I miss...
Ah, DM run quests can be spotty depending on the time of the year, most DMs have things they must attend to IRL and need to wait until a calmer time of the year before they can put up something. I've seen it get really dry on the server when it comes to DM events, then I've also seen it pull a flip with 3-4 DM events a week, it really depends on the time of the year.

Lastly is the mention of many "pointless" areas on the server, for example... The Semberholme forests with many areas that seem to have no point to them. I realize you said you don't really care for RPing, and you seem to acknowledge you're not the target audience, but these empty areas are a normal, regular thing on RP server only to offer scenery and opportunity for characters to role play on a trip to some where, each place is a special place to one character or another.


I'm not calling blasphemy, I'm not trying to be the "shame on you" kind of fella, and to be honest you hit on some legit points. But if you do come back to the server some day (and I hope you do), give some of what I suggested above a shot. It takes a little to adjust to the server, but it will come fast if you rely on players who truly just want to help. I hope I see you around at some point, I'll be making an attempt to log onto the server more often at this time of the year if you're looking for someone to watch your back on an adventure somewhere.

[Arya]

+2 to the response and post by the OP.

I really like seeing posts like this.  I also commend the OP for coming up with a very constructive post.  Regardless of whether anyone agrees or disagrees, I like the civility of the points, and the addressing of the points.

Great work guys!

I also agree with OTY.  The server has its ebb and flow in activity and I would say this past month has been a slower than usual month due to vacation, intense IRL stuff, etc. We had either hospitalized folks or those affected by hospitalized folks IRL, vacations, and all sorts of other fun going on in that realm.  

If you ever give the server another shot, I would be happy to direct you to the corners with activity.  ICly or OOCly (I play a notorious social butterfly who knows folks <.<).

Sincerely,
Arya

[vaesi]

I have to say as a player who has been on and off this server for years... I agree with most things you've posted and thank you for making them so clear for players like myself who sometimes ramble and can't get the point across.  In fact I'm going to ramble a bit more below on dm quests and my frustration with them not to be whiney or negative but in hopes it could be helpful to more than just me.

The dm events are sporadic and until the last week I've never seen them handled very IC'ly at all, always having to go to a forum (some of us hate forums) to ask to be put on a roster and then at a designated time rounded up like cattle and sent off on quest.  (I don't know about most of you but if I have to schedule a date a week or two in advance and then try to remember to rush home from work to be present, I feel like its work not fun.)  While I understand the ooc'ness is needed to keep the DM's from being mobbed with 20 toons at once and to have no wasted time in gathering folks... and required set up time... there has to be a balance.  Can't some quests start IC, with whoever is there... and just occur naturally.  They don't have to all be over the top save the world quests.  Heck have them deliver some letters or something.  Just have the NPCs interact... and while maybe they are not the bigger quests, give some xp for that?  Not all of us are going to sign up and schedule for a bigger quest and that means we'll go months, heck one time nearly a year without any dm xp.  

I have to say DM e-Dating Service of late has been doing this and I am eternally grateful to see this and perhaps I'm just missing the other DM's doing it as well, so thank you for those who have tried this!!

Lastly - I agree as well that leveling is too time consuming here, not saying everyone should be able to power grind... but with such a small player base we want to be able to do things together and that means someone gets babysat which isn't fun for anyone or... they simply don't interact which means we log off bored and then leave the server further amplifying the issue.  

[Ogre Time Yay]

I fully support the idea of more random, non-forum planned events happening, just as much as I support the idea of having long, in-depth forum planned quests. The variety is always refreshing and does more to make the role play world of CD seem more alive (the random events, I mean). One thing I just can't seem to agree on is that all players should be evened out easier, let me explain.

I don't believe that a characters level represents their reputation on -any- role play server. A level 8 character that is role played really well can be labeled as top tier, and I think the thing that people on this server often mix up is that if they're unable to do the things higher level character can do, that they should feel embarrassed about it for some reason. Then again what I believe isn't always represented, that happens on many servers, but the message I think that needs to be pushed towards any player who welcomes it (especially on their long climb to leveling up their ideal character build) is that their character is a bad ass, whether they be level 5 or 20. A player (who is now a DM, who is someone I won't mention unless he wants me to) once told me something really wise around the first year I spent on CD. "Everyone has more fun when they feel like a bad ass", he told me OOC, and this guy was someone that -really- did an excellent job of making those he role played with all feel fuckin' awesome, and I have always appreciate that he was able to do that for me and others despite many of us being decently low level at the time.

Is it the fault of players with low level characters for losing interest or hope? No, if they just don't feel it, they just don't feel it. Hell, I use a character that's over level 20 and for about 2 months and a half I haven't been feeling it, I'll even go as far as to say I felt pretty out of place at times. My thing is that I believe that players using higher level characters should take the time to show some respect to lower level players who accompany them, making the level climb that much more worthwhile, and when they hit level 16 or up it will feel like it was truly earned. Give a "Wow, nice hit!" or a "Hey, good job!" Every now and then. In a role play aspect, low level characters aren't just characters to send into a fight, many of them play a key role in building up the world this server works to create.

[trylobyte]

So, here are some thoughts from someone who has spent way too much time here.  I present them in no particular order.

1)  Useless areas.  Yes, we do have a lot of them, and it can make navigating to some places on foot (Velethuil) a colossal pain, especially as most of these areas also have spawns of crag cats or, further east, bears.  There are entire dungeons that have been forgotten over the years because nobody remembers how to get there.  That said, some of these areas used to serve a purpose and several more are simply atmospheric; it's designed to convey the expanse of the forest without having one giant lag-bombing 40x40 area.  Others see a lot of use in quests.  So, many of them do serve their purpose, just not immediately.  Yes, I know they're annoying and make navigation difficult, but they're there for a reason.  How good of a reason that is, is a matter of opinion.  I do think some of them could be removed or merged and others spiced up a bit.

2)  Quests.  Different DMs prefer different questing styles.  A lot of quests are pre-arranged simply because that's the quickest and easiest way for a DM to get a fair-sized diverse group that's all around the same level range.  It's a big downer to run an ad-hoc quest about an orc attack for the people in the Square who are levels 11, 13, 14, and 16 when the other person there is a level 30 epic mage that can kill the whole event in ten seconds, and it's equally difficult to tell that level 30 OOCly that 'You can't go, you're too powerful' when their character should ICly respond.  Or if you have four people in the quest and you take them to a dungeon, only to find they're all warriors and nobody can open the locked doors or chests or disarm the traps.  I've been in the former situation before, and let me tell you, it's no fun - Not only do you miss the quest but people can and will use it against you ICly because there's no valid IC response as to why you didn't come help.

3)  Levels.  Leveling up is actually the fastest it's ever been right now...  which says something about how slow it used to be.  If you stick to a single character or a very small core group, you'll level up fairly quickly just going about your daily stuff.  If you get in a group that's getting DM events run for them often you can shoot up to level 17-20 in 2-3 months.  That said, levels don't mean everything, especially in quests.  Most DMs are flexible and accommodating of lower-level outliers and can keep them engaged and feeling useful.  One of the most epic things my level 30 sorceress ever did occurred when she was level nine, partied with a group of high-levels including an epic melee fighter with Dev Crit.  You can't just run up and click on enemies and expect them to die, though - Lower levels are where you need to be creative to be awesome.  But those moments are infinitely more satisfying than passing a gear or build check.

4)  Lack of information.  I agree with you here.  The old forums had generally more informative postings, but when we transitioned not much of that got copied over.  The lack of mapnotes is also somewhat frustrating when navigating the bigger, same-looking areas, and sometimes you just stumble upon dungeons you wouldn't have even thought to look for.  This is meant to be part of the server's appeal - exploration and discovery - but it tends to be one that falls flat for most people.  They know how to get to a few key areas and that's all they ever really need to know, so why go wandering in the forest for two hours, right?

5)  NPC-driven quests.  I also agree these give way too little XP considering they're all one-shots.  This was done to prevent grinding and speed-leveling, but the flip side is that they're hardly even worth doing when the daily XP fairy will give you more XP than all but one of them (and that one requires a high-level party to finish and is known to be buggy, and is even then only worth 1000 XP).  These could use a bit more of a reason to do them other than for a few hundred extra XP to push someone over a level cap, which is all they do right now.

[Balkoth]

Jun 13, 2014 8:13:13 GMT -5 Ogre Time Yay said:

On that server it would take you months to get to level 9, and level 9 felt like it was a -big- thing on there.

To be clear about something -- my objection is not that it's extremely hard to hit level 10.  My objection is that it's extremely hard to hit level 10 AND most PCs I see are 16+.  If the level cap was 14 and most PCs were 11-13 I wouldn't mind being level 9.  The actual level is not what matters, it's the difference in levels.

Jun 13, 2014 8:13:13 GMT -5 Ogre Time Yay said:

Stepping away from that certain mention however, another thing I agree with you on is that you shouldn't have to sit in Arabel Central and have pointless conversation for the sake of waiting on the 300 XP the ticker gives... So don't. Seriously though, if you see a group massing up to go do something like an orc raid, it doesn't matter what level you are, just tag along man.

How do I know a group is massing to do an orc raid unless I'm hanging out there for the sake of pointless conversation, though?  Bit of a Catch-22.

Jun 13, 2014 8:13:13 GMT -5 Ogre Time Yay said:

Let's see, what'd I miss...
Ah, DM run quests can be spotty depending on the time of the year, most DMs have things they must attend to IRL and need to wait until a calmer time of the year before they can put up something. I've seen it get really dry on the server when it comes to DM events, then I've also seen it pull a flip with 3-4 DM events a week, it really depends on the time of the year.

I certainly understand that DMs are busy.  But when it's the only way to gain XP to try to even halfway catch up with the AVERAGE PC level then it's frustrating depending on them.

Jun 13, 2014 8:13:13 GMT -5 Ogre Time Yay said:

Lastly is the mention of many "pointless" areas on the server, for example... The Semberholme forests with many areas that seem to have no point to them. I realize you said you don't really care for RPing, and you seem to acknowledge you're not the target audience, but these empty areas are a normal, regular thing on RP server only to offer scenery and opportunity for characters to role play on a trip to some where, each place is a special place to one character or another.

I get what you're saying to some degree, but 3+ areas dedicated to "on the northwest/north/northeast shores of Lake " seems...unusual.  Not saying empty areas for that kind of scenry/RP are a problem, saying there seems to be too many of those empty areas, if that makes sense.  Not the biggest deal in any case.

Jun 13, 2014 9:18:31 GMT -5 Arya Kalarathri said:

If you ever give the server another shot, I would be happy to direct you to the corners with activity.

I'll keep that in mind, thanks.

Jun 13, 2014 10:54:46 GMT -5 vaesi said:

Lastly - I agree as well that leveling is too time consuming here, not saying everyone should be able to power grind... but with such a small player base we want to be able to do things together and that means someone gets babysat which isn't fun for anyone or... they simply don't interact which means we log off bored and then leave the server further amplifying the issue. 

Indeed.

[Garage Trashcan]

You say that your problem isn't being level 9, it's being level 9 when everyone else is level 16.

Comparing yourself to others, especially those far away from you in terms of goals, is a very, very easy way to make everything you do unenjoyable. If levels and CR weren't listed anywhere on the server, which some people here support very strongly. My question is if you would feel the same if you didn't have this basis of comparison. You had no clue what level anyone else was without asking.

I used to do this a lot and it made me very bitter about playing here when I saw friends advancing faster than I was. Your primary concern should be if you're having fun or not. Sometimes it's something you can change, sometimes it's something you can't.

Since NWN has dwindled, I can't really make any recommendations for you. I think 3 Towns had the more sort of action/adventure RP(lite?) environment, but I think they shut down a few years ago (at least not listed on NWN server list). If you want more action, Higher Ground PoA has some good stuff going for them with subraces and quasi-classes.

[The Red Mage]

I don't think there are any good action servers left with a sizable population.


The feeling of "forever playing catch up" is a very, very common feeling new players have, and over the last several years, is the reason many of them have told me they have left. Unfortunately, there isn't much you can do about it besides ignore it. It took me over five years to hit level 20 on one character. You can do the same now with active play in less than a year.

But if you don't like social roleplay, you won't enjoy playing here. This is a very social roleplay heavy server. Most roleplay when out adventuring is pretty mute since travel has almost been completely eliminated by only going to teleport friendly dungeons and using the new widgets to return to arabel. Other than the sparing battlecry when out and about, you'll find almost all your time in social RP.

[trylobyte]

Wouldn't say it's that bad, Red Mage.  Just that most groups don't bother roleplaying in dungeons since they're there for loot.  I was in a dungeon group that roleplayed a bit throughout the whole dungeon as recently as last night.

The 'playing catch-up' is a frustrating thing, I agree, especially if you pair up with more active friends or keep comparing yourself to the alts of long-term players, who will both tend to level faster than you.  This is one reason I could support for removing challenge ratings and level indications, but even so, it's something you can accomplish by just putting it out of your mind.  You're not going to catch up in a few days and, unlike action servers, you'll always be at a disadvantage (either in items, connections, experience, or knowledge of the server) compared to an older character.  So, don't compare yourself to them.  I wasn't measuring myself by the deeds of epics when I was level 10 either, I just accepted that if I stuck it out I'd eventually be one of those guys too.

I do agree that the leveling system could use a few tweaks, but it's hard for us to come up with a system that evens out the leveling curve while also making sure we don't get 'overnight epics' and rampant powergrinding.

[Ogre Time Yay]

Balkoth:
"To be clear about something -- my objection is not that it's extremely hard to hit level 10.  My objection is that it's extremely hard to hit level 10 AND most PCs I see are 16+.  If the level cap was 14 and most PCs were 11-13 I wouldn't mind being level 9.  The actual level is not what matters, it's the difference in levels."

Well first off, my example there was talking about a completely different server (and my point wasn't that it's hard to level up), but I catch your meaning. Thing is we'd risk sacrificing long term level progression just for the sake of keeping all players close in level range, and considering how much faster one can level up on this server than other servers I've seen, it becomes a question of what are we sacrificing in order to make something else work, would it truly be worth it, how many other players would be ticked off if these changes were made?


Balkoth:
"How do I know a group is massing to do an orc raid unless I'm hanging out there for the sake of pointless conversation, though?  Bit of a Catch-22."

Central, while being the main get-together place on the server, isn't the only place you can go to get with a group raid. There are some factions on the server that do nothing but raids, almost daily, -and- have a role play reason for doing so. I know my character faction use to for awhile. The Dwarven faction makes it a regular thing, meet and drink, get drunk, run out and go kill things, drink, kill more things, occasionally set fire to property. Most raids that I'm in these days are through faction, especially since as of recently I have been avoiding Central more often.


Balkoth:
"I certainly understand that DMs are busy.  But when it's the only way to gain XP to try to even halfway catch up with the AVERAGE PC level then it's frustrating depending on them."

Well the problem here is (what others here have said already) that you keep comparing your character to others characters, don't. Like I said before, most other players aren't judging you for having a lower level character because everyone has been there. This is usually something you can find in most online RPGs or MMOs, there are the players who just joined in and are getting started, and there are the higher level players who have been at it for awhile now, there's not much that can be done about that honestly without sacrificing other aspects of the server...


Balkoth:
"I get what you're saying to some degree, but 3+ areas dedicated to "on the northwest/north/northeast shores of Lake <blank>" seems...unusual.  Not saying empty areas for that kind of scenry/RP are a problem, saying there seems to be too many of those empty areas, if that makes sense.  Not the biggest deal in any case."

I can see how that would be an issue to some people, sure.

Thing is... With all of the points you made above, I'm not necessarily saying you're wrong, nor am I trying to tell you not to have your current opinion of how the server works. You have a play style that you prefer that falls more into the category of a more action based server (from what I have read at least), which is not at all a bad thing. However on a RP server set up like this one it's really going to take alot of patience, and you'll drive yourself nuts if you keep comparing levels. Fill the time with role playing, that's the key. From my experience leveling my character up it went so much faster when I took the time to role play with other characters, the time in between was a blast and before I knew it I was at level 16.

If you're not someone who is into the role playing thing, or if you really just can't bring yourself to come back to the server, that's fine. It just means it's not your cup of tea.

[ClockworkMayhem]

I wasn't really going to weigh in on this, and I think I'm still going to avoid that, save to say that you are hardly alone. My fiance and I have been here about two months, and each have at least three or four characters a piece (I have six or seven, now - I get what Dagesh refers to as a hardcore case of "PC-itis," but I play them all with reasonable regularity) and their levels range from 4 to 13 - all within a reasonable distance of your character. So does Atomic Twinkie/Bushy Fro. I'm around at weird times - sometimes late at night, sometimes early in the morning, sometimes in the middle of the day, but I tend to be around a lot (just been sick the past week or two, so I've been around a little less than normal). If you stick around, no matter your opinion of square RP (and while I don't mind it, I get tired of it quick and find a way to get a dungeon-run going), you rarely have to do it for very long before you'll have a group who's willing to run with you, and that won't make you feel entirely useless. If you're willing to give this server another shot, just drop me a line in game or here, and I'm more than willing to run with you.

[Fire Wraith]

Just a few things to add here:

One, there's always tweaks and adjustments that can (and will) be made.  Things like notifying players about the stores (though rather than add a sign that I figure many newcomers won't bother to read, I'll put in a catch that tells you what Tier of store you're looking at when you open it, for instance).

As far as level progression goes, a few thoughts.

-The level bands for dungeon groups are very large for a reason.  You can gain full xp in a group with people up to 12 levels higher, so as a level 9, that means anyone level 21 and under.
-By design intent, there's not a lot of content designed for solo play, i.e., you're not meant to solo your way to the top.  The goal of the server isn't to be high level, it's to have an interesting and fun story, which by its nature is going to involve other players and DMs.  We don't try and actively discourage solo play, but it's not the intent.
-If you're worried about being too low-level, and not being able to contribute... well, that's mostly on you, in the end.  Most groups I've seen were more than willing to take anyone along regardless of level, so long as they weren't going to have to be constantly resurrecting the person.  Most of the time I see someone passed over for a group, it's for purely IC reasons, or the dungeon in question is a ridiculously hard epic-level one (which is a rarity).  Sit in the back, use missile weapons, use healing kits on people - you may not do a lot, but you're doing something, and you can usually roleplay a bit (I've yet to see anyone complain about others RPing during a dungeon run).

On areas and size, yes, it's large.  We wanted to cover a significant range of territory, and do a believable job of it.  We didn't go quite as crazy as servers like ALFA used to (where they aimed for a complete 1:1 representation, or thereabouts), but we felt we had a good approximation, and with a combination of caravans and travel magic, it's usually not too bad.

Thanks for the feedback though - I do hope you change your mind, though as you said, the server is very RP/story focused, ultimately, and if that's not your interest, then you may well be better off playing something else.

[Fire Wraith]

One minor correction - there's no hard and fast limit on the level range.  Instead it's dependent on the size and composition of the party, and the average level of the group.

[Balkoth]

Jun 14, 2014 20:40:23 GMT -5 Garage Trashcan said:

You say that your problem isn't being level 9, it's being level 9 when everyone else is level 16.
Comparing yourself to others, especially those far away from you in terms of goals, is a very, very easy way to make everything you do unenjoyable. If levels and CR weren't listed anywhere on the server, which some people here support very strongly. My question is if you would feel the same if you didn't have this basis of comparison. You had no clue what level anyone else was without asking.

I would absolutely feel the same way.  I might not be able to tell that Bob is exactly 7 levels higher than me but I can absolutely tell he's substantially more powerful than I am due to how hard he hits, how little he GETS hit, his more powerful/available potions, and his higher health pool.  I might not be able to say his exact level advantage but I could easily guess he's 5-10 levels higher.

Which then brings up a question -- once I realize that Bob is massively more powerful than I am due to OOC game mechanics, does that mean I need to RP like Bob is stronger?  If I don't, then the game itself exposes the lie.  If I do, then levels and CR (OOC mechanics) are affecting things.

Jun 14, 2014 20:40:23 GMT -5 Garage Trashcan said:

Since NWN has dwindled, I can't really make any recommendations for you. I think 3 Towns had the more sort of action/adventure RP(lite?) environment, but I think they shut down a few years ago (at least not listed on NWN server list). If you want more action, Higher Ground PoA has some good stuff going for them with subraces and quasi-classes.

Three Towns still exists and I tried it a few months ago.  Higher Ground devolves into immunities (mostly elemental) at high levels which is not enjoyable for me.  It was basically "Get X and Y immunity for Z area and win easily, otherwise you'll be utterly wiped out."  For reference, here is a list of servers I can think of off-hand that I have tried and ultimately left for various reasons (might be forgetting a few):

Amia
Argentum Regio
The Awakening
Glorwing
Higher Ground
Isle of Thain
Kharindale
Legion of Darkstar
Three Towns
World of Aenea
World of Caenyr
World of Greyhawk
World Serpent Inn

Jun 15, 2014 5:06:57 GMT -5 The Red Mage said:

The feeling of "forever playing catch up" is a very, very common feeling new players have, and over the last several years, is the reason many of them have told me they have left.

While I obviously cannot speak for others, I would like to emphasize that it's not even so much "forever playing catch up" as "forever playing catch up AND being half a dozen or more levels behind everyone."  If coming in at this point meant I would never catch up to the highest level characters and that I would always remain a few levels behind, I could live with that -- because I can still contribute well in groups even if I'm the weakest in the group.  But being SO far behind the others for SO long is my concern.

Jun 15, 2014 5:06:57 GMT -5 The Red Mage said:

But if you don't like social roleplay, you won't enjoy playing here. This is a very social roleplay heavy server. Most roleplay when out adventuring is pretty mute since travel has almost been completely eliminated by only going to teleport friendly dungeons and using the new widgets to return to arabel. Other than the sparing battlecry when out and about, you'll find almost all your time in social RP.

Interesting.  I'm not even sure what a "teleport friendly dungeon" is.  I was also hoping there would be DM plot events that would be RP-focused without being "So, how was your day?"  Political drama, external threats, etc.

Jun 15, 2014 9:09:36 GMT -5 trylobyte said:

You're not going to catch up in a few days and, unlike action servers, you'll always be at a disadvantage (either in items, connections, experience, or knowledge of the server) compared to an older character.

If you might recall, I gave numbers earlier that showed how it would take 40 days of playing 4 hours a day just to hit level *13.*  If I played 10 hours a week on the server it would take *over 5 months* to hit level 13.  And level 13 is still well below the average.  My concern isn't about catching up in a few days -- if we assume that level 16 is "caught up" in general (below average still but high enough to be able to hold your own) then at 10 hours a week it would take 33000/(75 * 10) = 44 weeks.  That's just for level 16.

This isn't counting DM events, of course, so presumably would be a bit faster but you still get the general idea.  It's not even a matter of a few days or even a few months, it's potentially nearly an entire year.

If you're happy with the set-up by all means keep it but, as Red Mage said, I think you're losing a *lot* of players that way.

Jun 15, 2014 10:08:44 GMT -5 Ogre Time Yay said:

and considering how much faster one can level up on this server than other servers I've seen

I can safely say this is the slowest server for leveling up that I have seen by at least an order of magnitude, possibly two (keeping in mind the average level is like 16-20 and the cap is 30, bit different than a server with a level cap of 7 or something).  Out of curiosity, which servers are you thinking of?

Jun 15, 2014 10:08:44 GMT -5 Ogre Time Yay said:

Most raids that I'm in these days are through faction, especially since as of recently I have been avoiding Central more often.

I suppose this would be a bad time to ask something along the lines of "what in the world is a faction?"  Because to me that sounds like Zhentarim (sp?) versus Cormyr versus Drow versus whatever but I have a hunch that's not what you mean.

Jun 15, 2014 10:08:44 GMT -5 Ogre Time Yay said:

This is usually something you can find in most online RPGs or MMOs, there are the players who just joined in and are getting started, and there are the higher level players who have been at it for awhile now, there's not much that can be done about that honestly without sacrificing other aspects of the server...

Two big differences there, though:

1, the lower level players don't interact with the higher level ones 99% of the time, at least not in terms of combat.  They don't do dungeons or quests together.  The lower levels effectively have their own "sphere" of interaction which is people +-3 levels or whatever with plenty of people in that range to do stuff with.  That's quite different from here where it's being suggested a level 9 could be in a group with a level 21+ character.

2, the lower levels tend to "catch up" massively, massively faster than here.

As you might guess, it's both of these existing at the same time which I find problematic.  If I had plenty of stuff to do with lots of PCs my level I'd mind a lot less that it would take me a year just to be average on the server.  But instead I mostly find people 6+ levels higher, which is a rather big deal when you're only level 9.

Jun 15, 2014 10:08:44 GMT -5 Ogre Time Yay said:

From my experience leveling my character up it went so much faster when I took the time to role play with other characters, the time in between was a blast and before I knew it I was at level 16.

Out of curiosity, do you happen to recall how many days it took you to go from 10 to 16?  And how many hours per day you averaged?  I suppose I'm having a hard time believing that "before I knew it" equates to 10+ months but maybe we have very different timescales.

Jun 15, 2014 10:08:44 GMT -5 Ogre Time Yay said:

If you're not someone who is into the role playing thing, or if you really just can't bring yourself to come back to the server, that's fine. It just means it's not your cup of tea.

FWIW my first server was World of Caenyr, which is an RP server, and the server I played on the longest before leaving (which was part of a mass exodus where half the server left due to drama).

Jun 15, 2014 20:17:20 GMT -5 ClockworkMayhem said:

If you stick around, no matter your opinion of square RP (and while I don't mind it, I get tired of it quick and find a way to get a dungeon-run going), you rarely have to do it for very long before you'll have a group who's willing to run with you, and that won't make you feel entirely useless. If you're willing to give this server another shot, just drop me a line in game or here, and I'm more than willing to run with you.

I'll definitely keep that in mind.  Won't possibly happen for another week or two, though, too busy with other things right now (RL, guild I lead in an MMO going through a major transition, NWN building project).

Jun 16, 2014 7:09:22 GMT -5 Fire Wraith said:

-By design intent, there's not a lot of content designed for solo play, i.e., you're not meant to solo your way to the top.
-If you're worried about being too low-level, and not being able to contribute... well, that's mostly on you, in the end.

Out of curiosity, do you view being escorted through a dungeon by a massively more powerful character actual group play?  Feels to me like solo play on part of the higher level -- at least in terms of combat mechanics, which is what we are discussing at this exact moment.

Jun 16, 2014 7:09:22 GMT -5 Fire Wraith said:

Sit in the back, use missile weapons, use healing kits on people - you may not do a lot, but you're doing something, and you can usually roleplay a bit (I've yet to see anyone complain about others RPing during a dungeon run).

How do you see this working out for someone who's playing a frontline melee character?  An archer missing extra shots and/or being more fragile isn't immersion breaking.  A mage not being as good at spellcasting is believable.  But a traditionally sword and shield warrior hiding in the back with missile weapons and using healing kits with -1 or 0 Wisdom modifier and 0 Heal skill seems...rather odd, no?

Jun 16, 2014 7:09:22 GMT -5 Fire Wraith said:

Thanks for the feedback though - I do hope you change your mind, though as you said, the server is very RP/story focused, ultimately, and if that's not your interest, then you may well be better off playing something else.

I'm actually *very* story focused, massive lore nerd for games ranging from Mass Effect to Warcraft to Lords of Magic to Half Life and beyond.  Perhaps it would be more accurate to say care less about my own character's background and more about what's actually going on in the world.