Some (Relatively) Brief Thoughts From an Ex-New Player

[Mystic Warden]

I would second what Daphne said above.

Also, with all due respect I think I noticed a misconception at the OP: you do not have to be for example lvl 16 to go to an adventure with other lvl 16 and being useful, not a ballast or porcelain doll for the others to protect. Sure, if you are lvl 3, it is problematic. But if you are around lvl 10 you can already make meaningful contributions to a lvl 16 group, you just have to find out the way. For example you can cast buffs and heals instead of others, making it possible for the higher lvl characters to save their spell potential for offensive spells. On lvl 10 a Bull's strenght and others hold long enough to finish a dungeon. You might summon creatures just to provide one more target for the enemies, and reduce potential flanking situations against the frontliners. And so on, and so on. It just needs a little creative thinking and some coordinated preparation with your teammates. And getting on lvl 9 or 10 is much more faster than reaching lvl 16. Could take 1-2 weeks tops, depending on how hell-bent you are on grinding.

[Balkoth]

Jul 5, 2014 10:53:10 GMT -5 daphne said:

I like advancing in levels because it feels like I accomplished something. I don't get that nearly as much for Levels 3-8 because I can do that in two three days. A level that I worked for, that I did things more than just kill endless goblins - that meant a lot more to me. 

I mean no offense, honestly curious: given that you CAN just kill endless goblins and let the XP tick up, why does that level mean something to you?

Alternatively, given you can do nothing but stand around and talk about your day in the square and earn XP at the same rate, why does that level mean something to you?

I agree with your general principle -- going on a quest to discover artifacts before a lich finds them and then confronting him in his lair and gaining a level as a result is far more epic than "killed goblins for 10 hours" but how is that actually realized in-game?  Trying to understand your perspective here.

Jul 5, 2014 17:46:41 GMT -5 Mystic Warden said:

But if you are around lvl 10 you can already make meaningful contributions to a lvl 16 group, you just have to find out the way. For example you can cast buffs and heals instead of others, making it possible for the higher lvl characters to save their spell potential for offensive spells. On lvl 10 a Bull's strenght and others hold long enough to finish a dungeon. You might summon creatures just to provide one more target for the enemies, and reduce potential flanking situations against the frontliners. And so on, and so on.

How does that apply to a strength based melee fighter?

- Cannot cast buffs.
- Have no healing abilities besides Healing Kits but those are pretty awful with zero Heal skill.
- Cannot summon creatures
- Cannot contribute effectively with a ranged weapon
- Cannot disarm traps/open locks/find secrets

Sure, a level 10 mage has some things they can contribute to a group despite being lower level.  But how about a traditional fighter?

[The Red Mage]

It doesn't apply. The amount of time a week you need to play if you wish to get maximum rewards on this server isn't comparable to any modern video game or mmo(because some people put in less hours at their jobs than on this server). If you wanted to extend the "doing chores for grind" analogy for "dailies" in this game to wow, gw2, or other modern mmos, then you're out of luck.

This is a sandbox for stories. If you're looking to maximum builds or make characters specifically for fighting without having the story as your primary goal here, then you're going to have a bad time. Everything else is unconsequential in comparison.

Your strength based fighter would need to start from the bottom. If they want to be a tactician, then you'd need to roleplay that. However, you cannot since you are unaware of the dungeon layouts and would be a "worse tactician" than those who have ran it dozens of times. You'd only be useful when throwing the numbers you have against the numbers in appropriate dungeons. This server isn't balanced for parties like that even though it cannot discourage parties like that from forming.

All I can suggest is to try this place again when you have a story in mind for a character to start fresh with and work toward.

[Mystic Warden]

Jul 6, 2014 0:35:18 GMT -5 Balkoth said:

Jul 5, 2014 17:46:41 GMT -5 Mystic Warden said:

But if you are around lvl 10 you can already make meaningful contributions to a lvl 16 group, you just have to find out the way. For example you can cast buffs and heals instead of others, making it possible for the higher lvl characters to save their spell potential for offensive spells. On lvl 10 a Bull's strenght and others hold long enough to finish a dungeon. You might summon creatures just to provide one more target for the enemies, and reduce potential flanking situations against the frontliners. And so on, and so on.

How does that apply to a strength based melee fighter?

- Cannot cast buffs.
- Have no healing abilities besides Healing Kits but those are pretty awful with zero Heal skill.
- Cannot summon creatures
- Cannot contribute effectively with a ranged weapon
- Cannot disarm traps/open locks/find secrets

Sure, a level 10 mage has some things they can contribute to a group despite being lower level.  But how about a traditional fighter?

1) As I see currently a lot of PCs are mages or have magic-related/focused PrCs on the server. I see relatively few warrior types around. So a frontliner is generally useful. Buffed up silly by the spellcasters you should be able to handle the common monsters in a dungeon, and just retreat a bit when the big baddy monster comes, leaving that to the spellcasters. Who, in comparison, could save their spell potential against it as you could dispose the common riff-raff for them.

2) Even a melee oriented fighter could fall back sometimes to practice his archery a bit, no shame in that... You could also use acid flasks, alchemist's fire, holy water, etc. to put in some damage. Yes, it will not be too much, but you will contribute and the players will appreciate it. That "pretty awful" healings could also be very useful when they come in the right moment.

Thing is, the level difference is becoming a bit less important on higher levels. Let's say, a 5 level difference is huge when we are speaking of a lvl3 and a lvl8 char. But a lvl 11 is a quite competent character in itself, even when compared with a lvl 16. A lvl 16 mage can empower your lvl11 fighter much better and can bring the fighter's prowess much more up, compared to a lvl8 mage trying to do the same to a lvl3 fighter.

[daphne]

Jul 6, 2014 0:35:18 GMT -5 Balkoth said:

Jul 5, 2014 10:53:10 GMT -5 daphne said:

I like advancing in levels because it feels like I accomplished something. I don't get that nearly as much for Levels 3-8 because I can do that in two three days. A level that I worked for, that I did things more than just kill endless goblins - that meant a lot more to me. 

I mean no offense, honestly curious: given that you CAN just kill endless goblins and let the XP tick up, why does that level mean something to you?

Alternatively, given you can do nothing but stand around and talk about your day in the square and earn XP at the same rate, why does that level mean something to you?

I agree with your general principle -- going on a quest to discover artifacts before a lich finds them and then confronting him in his lair and gaining a level as a result is far more epic than "killed goblins for 10 hours" but how is that actually realized in-game?  Trying to understand your perspective here.

Well, the part about "all you can do is stand around and talk about your day" is where I think we have different perspectives.  I like gaining levels because it allows me to develop skills and talents - planning to add points in healing?  Spend time rp'ing with one of the clerics about, or at the basement level of the Temple of Selune.  Learning a new language? Spend time with someone who can teach you! Taking Dodge as a feat?  Train with someone already experienced!  

So by advancing levels I get to develop my character and gain friends and relationships on the way.  If I spend a day killing goblins at level 4, yah I can move up and get better quickly, and develop my skills - isn't that why we gain levels in the first place?  But it isn't as fun as doing things in-game that allow me reflect the changes on the character sheet.  Yes, it is more fun to have a grand quest to eliminate a dire opponent.  But that is never possible to do all the time, and I think it robs characters of richness and personality if all you ever do is fight.  

[darthweasel]

2. Fortunately the focus of this server is, like FW said, RPing. I know I seem to be repeating myself, but on an RP server people should focus less on the level of other characters around them, and more on what that character has to offer story wise.


I have not made any statements on this subject since I did not have any real strong feelings on it, but I feel like I need to address this now.

I cringe whenever I see this statement. I know when it's use people are trying to be helpful, but I get the feeling that the major hidden statement is "Go to another server then we RP here'"
 
Unfortunately many times sitting around and chatting about mundane topics, or having PC's run off to get frisky at the inn is mistaken for roleplaying. I may not have as much time in on table top games as some, but I can say I have never seen those to actions take place for the majority of the time on.

At the risk of offending some I am going to say a few things.

Hunting/grinding is the only significant RP for a low level PC. Any class in the game is essentially a newcomer into their field. The only way a newcomer gets better is by training. (Ogre's whitecloaks are a perfect example.) I am not sure how many here have a military background, but those that do will probably be able to attest that most non combat military time is spent training and drilling for the real deal.

As for what a character has to offer story wise. It has been my experience across multiple RP servers (no grinding action serves.) that only once a character is powerful enough that they cannot be discounted or ignored by other established characters, that they can really contribute. Until then any view tossed out by the character will be treated with disdain by those who can simply smack them down.




With all that said I have not run into those issues above. I will part by saying this.

Most every player here is not new to the concept of an RP server. NWN is an old game that's proven rather resilient, but we are not seeing new bodies join up anymore. What we have are mostly rp vets who are moving to what remains, and probably most of them have had toons they poured a load of time into, and now are stuck back at square zero trying to get something going again.

[Ogre Time Yay]

Jul 6, 2014 13:56:07 GMT -5 darthweasel said:

2. Fortunately the focus of this server is, like FW said, RPing. I know I seem to be repeating myself, but on an RP server people should focus less on the level of other characters around them, and more on what that character has to offer story wise.


I have not made any statements on this subject since I did not have any real strong feelings on it, but I feel like I need to address this now.

I cringe whenever I see this statement. I know when it's use people are trying to be helpful, but I get the feeling that the major hidden statement is "Go to another server then we RP here'"
 
Unfortunately many times sitting around and chatting about mundane topics, or having PC's run off to get frisky at the inn is mistaken for roleplaying. I may not have as much time in on table top games as some, but I can say I have never seen those to actions take place for the majority of the time on.

At the risk of offending some I am going to say a few things.

Hunting/grinding is the only significant RP for a low level PC. Any class in the game is essentially a newcomer into their field. The only way a newcomer gets better is by training. (Ogre's whitecloaks are a perfect example.) I am not sure how many here have a military background, but those that do will probably be able to attest that most non combat military time is spent training and drilling for the real deal.

As for what a character has to offer story wise. It has been my experience across multiple RP servers (no grinding action serves.) that only once a character is powerful enough that they cannot be discounted or ignored by other established characters, that they can really contribute. Until then any view tossed out by the character will be treated with disdain by those who can simply smack them down.




With all that said I have not run into those issues above. I will part by saying this.

Most every player here is not new to the concept of an RP server. NWN is an old game that's proven rather resilient, but we are not seeing new bodies join up anymore. What we have are mostly rp vets who are moving to what remains, and probably most of them have had toons they poured a load of time into, and now are stuck back at square zero trying to get something going again.

And I'll add that "Go to another server then, we RP here'" is not at all what I meant by that statement... At all.
The meaning of that was that this is an RP server, so you don't need to worry too much about the situation of level difference. In fact I'll argue the point that lower level characters have better opportunity for role play than higher level characters, or at least more of a fresh experience. By the time a character reaches epic levels or tier 4 level, their story is already run through and they usually sit on the side lines and watch others build things up, but that point has already been brought up before in this topic so I'll end this here to avoid running this topic in circles... Again...

Thing is... Don't rush it, enjoy each level, if you worry about your level being too low all the time then you're gonna feel like you're missing out all the time... That's how it works. I recently played as a level 4 character on a quest where I'm sure half the people participating where two to four levels above me, and I still had a blast role playing the events out in the quest (minus the random internet disconnections...), not once did I feel like I was lagging the team behind or feel like I was out of place. I got my ass kicked a few times on that quest, sure, but what I lacked in a fight I made up for with role playing out the character and his specialties, which... Get this... had nothing to do with combat.

[The Red Mage]

Jul 6, 2014 13:56:07 GMT -5 darthweasel said:

Unfortunately many times sitting around and chatting about mundane topics, or having PC's run off to get frisky at the inn is mistaken for roleplaying. I may not have as much time in on table top games as some, but I can say I have never seen those to actions take place for the majority of the time on.

I lol'd. +1

I tend to avoid running off like that blatantly.  Like...  really.  There's better Rp honestly.

[enarian123]

I've played so many nwn servers at this point I've honestly lost count.   Both sides have points and I honestly agree that getting to 16 easier would bring a change to the server.   That said, I doubt it would happen.   At the same time, many people have said that levels have little impact and it's a matter of what you bring to the story, I am sorry but that is only half true.   Yes, a smart and good rper can impact a story no matter what PC they are driving.  That said, like pointed out above, a lvl 10 fighter typ with our gear requirements is not gonna hold a line in a 16+ quest.   Yes leveling here takes a long time, and I'm like you Balkoth, I honestly can't stand being low in levels and doing nothing about it.  It bothers me like I'm not putting effort into the game.  I first came here years ago, and the server was lower in levels back then.   16 was more of less what 20 is now.  And it took forever to reach it.   If I hadn't had a group of friends here to keep me grounded to the server I'd likely have left.   At the same time my play style is to get out and get involved in things.   Nowdays Elf stands in the square cause I don't want to run around Elfing every plot that rolls through the server.   But when i was new, I played my ranger SD to any angle I could, I snooped, fought and when outleveled grabbed the quest items and ran for the door if needed.   Anyway, so yeah I hear you and agree with you, but as others have said the server is more or less set in it's ways and likely not about to change.   I'd highly suggest you try to stick it out, but in the end it's whatever is fun for you.    

I can honestly say our server is one of the more fun ones to stick with, and while slower to start if one does stay it has much more room for a player to make a impact then some of the other larger based servers where you grind out levels with rp exp req's to worry about.  

[Nothing But Smiles]

I don't have a whole lot to add to this, but the original post brings up a lot of concerns that I would echo. I thought the people were friendly, the gameplay was interesting and varied, and the server is built very well. That said, as much as everyone else has had to do it, I haven't met anyone who actually appreciates the system of leveling. Just a heads up, that by adding additional, if even incredibly marginal methods of developing experience actively, you may have a better chance of keeping new players who are searching for a server.

And perhaps my thoughts on the matter don't hold a lot of weight. But my schedule is at total odds with all of the announced quests, so I am unable to participate in most, if not all. I like to RP, but I also like my character to level up and get bigger numbers and be.. generally more interesting to play. This system does not work for me, and I get that. So I wish you all well, but thought I might add my opinion if to do nothing but highlight the importance of this issue.

The saddest thing, though, is that yes; the server does seem like one that is totally worth sticking with. However, if you can't play at peak hours, it gets frustrating very quickly.

[ClockworkMayhem]

Try requesting events for your character. There are DMs who are around at off-peak hours some of the time, and if you give them the courtesy of allowing them plenty of time to prepare, they can throw something together for you (and a few of the people you like to play with in those same off-peak hours - share the off-peak love!), so that you're getting DM events, as well.

[Fire Wraith]

Yes - in many cases, the quests being posted are put up at those times mainly in an attempt to cater to when lots of people are on. If we have players available at other times, often other times are convenient for some of us, too.

Another suggestion is to get involved with other players, such as involvement with a faction or group of some kind, as this will tend to draw you into more plots and events simply as a result of that - nevermind being fun on its own.

[realityjumper]

I'm one of those DMs that is happy to do quests for folks on request. Most of what I run are character development quests though, as opposed to Smash-N-Dash runs (which are also fun!). There is fighting, of course, but the goal is generally from someone requesting something to help their character. Examples in the past have been things like finding a long lost parent for answers, finding the slave owner for some payback, hunting down a vampire/werewolf/liche that hurt someone in their family.

I also run Fairy Tale Theater. That is something I schedule because, as noted in other posts on this thread, I'm one of those DMs with a busy life and need time to plan. I also make it a point to do something special within each of the FTT quests to advance a character's story. I'm adamant with FTT quests that LEVEL DOESN'T MATTER. It's about the story. And everyone gets to shine. Always. Because each character, regardless of level, has something special to share with the group. Sometimes its the description of fancifully using magecraft to destroy an enemy (because hey, even as a beginner, people IRL even get lucky once in awhile!) or the masterful way they wield their weapon to strike. Sometimes they end up being the only one able to open locks in the group. Even if they fail the check, if they RP the act of opening it (not just 'he opens the lock' but something like 'inserting the delicate tools into the opening, he listened for the distinct click as he wiggled the metal pick just so'), I will make the call as a DM to unlock it for them.

I'm always happy to schedule something for someone, regardless if you're a level 3 or level 23.