Heal/Harm

[Atomic Twinkie]

So, I've got a suggestion:

Change Harm to match Heal, or vice versa.

[gork]

Well it should work this way - it's same spell basically, just based on different energy. How do they work now if I may ask?

[Atomic Twinkie]

Harm takes you down to 1 HP if you fail the save.
Heal restores (X) amount of HP based on it's level.

[gork]

So if you are undead - f.e. Druid in changed shape harm is supper effective heal and Heal is not so effective way of harming you...

[sinisteromnibus]

Sept 3, 2014 17:55:03 GMT -5 gork said:

So if you are undead - f.e. Druid in changed shape harm is supper effective heal and Heal is not so effective way of harming you...

This, and with the imbalance of the two spells heal is drastically reduced in effectiveness and desirability where as Harm is pretty staple. I figure this change in the two spells was made because you can buy potions of heal at certain tiers of store level and money is easy enough to come by on CD that if Heal pots were to be a full heal (as per the pnp spell) then people would have 0 risk of dying against anything so long as they could pour money into pots.

Harm, on the other hand is purely offensive and basically only guarantees the death of a single enemy - limited by restrictions.

Perhaps the best thing would be to make the spells the same but change the potions?

[gork]

Harm can be changed to work same way Heal does.

[Vincent07]

Heal is capped, this is to preserve challenge.  Were it a full heal, then yes some would just never have any risk of dying.  Harm reduces down to 1d4 hp.  I do not think it has a cap, but neither to many other things that can kill you on a failed save.  Harm at least gives you a chance to heal and survive etc.

[Atomic Twinkie]

Well, for balance sake I think the two should be the same (with the same cap) since I've encountered mobs where they cast harm, one of the other mobs hit you once. Bam. Ded.

[The Red Mage]

I thought Harm was changed to a 100 damage cap. It is a level 6 spell afterall... which means at 100 damage, it would still do around the same amount of damage as a maximized missle storm to a single target.

I know Mass Heal has been unaffected, and it still full heals multiple people. Could make it a 10% damage cap and not effect enemies below 50% HP or something similar to Avasculate(the low HP cap).

[Remmy]

Probably best to have both Heal and Harm conform to their 3.5 pen and paper counterparts. 10 damage per level, capping at level 15, with a Will Save for half if used in a hostile manner. This allows them both to do a good amount of damage if used offensively but not act as a win button, either offensively or as a HP restorer. They are also touch attacks so they are pretty easy to hit with for anything boasting decent AB.

If higher amounts are desired you can make the level 9 versions, Greater Harm/Heal. These deal 15/level, with Heal also restoring negative levels and ability score damage.

[Garage Trashcan]

Sept 3, 2014 21:29:50 GMT -5 Remmy said:

If higher amounts are desired you can make the level 9 versions, Greater Harm/Heal. These deal 15/level, with Heal also restoring negative levels and ability score damage.

Doesn't Greater Restoration already do that and is only a level 7 spell?

But you know, all of your HP.

[Vincent07]

To clear up the actual numbers, as the spell descriptions are not currently accurate:

Heal:
Heals the target for 15 + (10 * Caster Level) capped at 215.
If cast on Undead: Reduces target to 1d4 HP on a successful touch attack. Must get through SR.

Harm:
Reduces the target to 1d4 HP on a successful touch attack. Must get through SR. Maximum cap of 200.
If cast on Undead: Heals the target for 200 HP.

Mass Heal:
Same as Heal, but in a Large AoE.

Greater Restoration:
Removes all negative effects and fully heals the target.

Notes:
NPCs still get a full heal out of Heal, as their HP pools are often much higher.  Same with the Harm Self ability given to some undead.  
Harm can not currently self-target, so any undead PCs can not currently use it to heal themselves.  

[The Red Mage]

Sounds good.

[Remmy]

Sept 3, 2014 22:27:26 GMT -5 Garage Trashcan said:

Sept 3, 2014 21:29:50 GMT -5 Remmy said:

If higher amounts are desired you can make the level 9 versions, Greater Harm/Heal. These deal 15/level, with Heal also restoring negative levels and ability score damage.

Doesn't Greater Restoration already do that and is only a level 7 spell?

But you know, all of your HP.

I don't know about 3.0 but in 3.5, which I pulled those numbers from, Greater Restoration doesn't actually heal HP at all. In PnP level draining is a great deal more problematic and harder to deal with. Greater Restoration is designed as a cure-all for it and other negative conditions like ability score drain, fatigue, exhaustion, and mental effects.

This is just my opinion but I think Heal and Harm going over the 150 point cap of their PnP counterparts grants the caster way too much damage potential to a single target. It is capable of dealing more damage to a single target than the majority of single-target mage and druid spells, which among casters are the primary ones for offensive magics and on many servers have had certain overpowered single target spells nerfed, like Missile Storm. Clerics are meant more as healers, support casters, and with the right spells they can be formidable warriors for a short time. They have some spells that allow offensive spell damage but they are almost always more specialized. And this is all PvE, the primary use of these spells. In PvP, rare as it might be, it is too powerful, becoming, essentially, a win button.

So I am proposing the PnP versions of the spells for the line.

Heal/Harm: 10 HP/level, capping at 150. Touch attack, has to get through SR, Will Save for half.
Greater Restoration: 10 HP/level, capping at 200-250. All the other effects it currently has.
Mass Heal: 15 HP/level, capping at 300 at level 20.

And later on a Greater Restoration and Mass Heal equivalent could be created for the negative energy line if such is desired.

[The Red Mage]

No problem with it. It would make harm similar to inflict spells, which it is suppose to be.

I don't have a problem with nerfing the healing spells either, maybe even a bit more. Truly specialized healing clerics know using healkits are more effective than trying to cast in the fray anyway, at least, in NWN combat.