Beating the (Un)dead Horse: IC, OOC, Antagonism, Issues, etc

[trylobyte]

Oct 5, 2014 18:54:07 GMT -5 dom101 said:

So to sum it up for you in tl;dr.  You're better than me in every possible way, and never 'take charge' of a quest or brow-beat lower level players.  Got it.

Quite the opposite Dom, I have a bit of a problem with taking over quests Aelie's involved in and I have to constantly remind myself to ease up on it.  It's hard, especially when you're really focused on getting the job done because you can do it a lot better than everyone else.

Maybe I'm mistaken that your quoting my post means you're aiming most of this at me, but you also seem to misinterpret my involvement in this particular situation - Aside from a passing comment or two to a friend during the buildup to the inevitable, I didn't actually get involved until well after everything had exploded onto the OOC plane.  People were posting opinions here and I gave mine hoping to avert an explosion like this in the future.  You know perfectly well I have a habit of speaking for other people.  I personally probably would have left the quest after the first PvP action simply because my character is an obnoxious do-gooder and wouldn't be able to tolerate being in the presence of people acting that way.  She was already considering leaving when everything happened and rendered the whole thing moot.

[dom101]

Oct 5, 2014 18:57:47 GMT -5 onivel said:

As far as the quest goes.... I told the DM it was their quest.. their ruling. We needed to abide or drop. The DM will always have my support in such decisions even if I disagree with it.

I chose to drop from the event; I even mentioned to the DM that I would bow out if she only asked.  I wasn't intent on even forcing the ruling.  And I fully support her decision, regardless whether or not I agree with it.  

[Vincent07]

When you take part in a DM event, that DM is in charge.  Period.

That means actions you want to take, need to be cleared through the DM.

Furthermore, if you can't 'tolerate' others in the event, either don't sign up, or keep your shit together and get through it.

This is very simple.  We are all on the same side here. We are here to have fun, tell stories etc.  IC conflicts are going to happen. KEEP THEM IC.

Look.  I have been here since the beginning. 9 years.  And you know what? After 9 years I am TIRED of this kind of drama.  Get along, have fun with your stories.  Stop fighting amongst yourselves.

[Edge]

Oct 5, 2014 19:15:06 GMT -5 Vincent07 said:

Look.  I have been here since the beginning. 9 years.  And you know what? After 9 years I am TIRED of this kind of drama.  Get along, have fun with your stories.  Stop fighting amongst yourselves.

This this this this THIS. I am sick and tired of coming onto the forums every evening and seeing the same bunch of people whining and complaining and fighting. This is why I left in the first place, and every time I see it, it makes me wonder if it was really worth it to come back.

[The Nameless Bard]

There are some seriously aggressive posts here.  Maybe take a break and relax before posting.  They don't really help anyone.

I wasn't there, but there has been some good advice given for all events:

• Just because you can doesn't mean you should.  Events have a lot of moving parts and dominating the entire thing, while may be IC for your character, means you're OOCly ignoring the golden rule of the server.  Let others players shine too.  This is also about dialing back on your aggressive PCs if you want to be involved with other people outside of your IC friends.  
• Events are supposed to be fun.  PvP is generally not fun (well maybe for the winning player), so try to consider other people in these DM events (specifically the DM).  Not everyone can roll Player v player combat into the middle of an event.  Consider that the DM is taking time out of their day to run something (that should be) fun for your character.
  
• Don't make assumptions.  If someone engaged in PvP with out asking the DM, I'd get them out of the event fairly quick regardless if another player complained or not (unless I really knew everyone involved pretty well).  It's not a surprise that it derailed the event. 
• Just for event XP.  I would wager that people like the fun of the even over event XP.  Seems to be a rather jarring comment.
• Listen to the DM.  Don't take it personally.  

Maybe I'm too out of touch with the way NWN works these days, but this seems like basic common sense that we used to operate on.  

[Deleted]

Oct 5, 2014 19:40:59 GMT -5 The Nameless Bard said:

There are some seriously aggressive posts here.  Maybe take a break and relax before posting.  They don't really help anyone.

I wasn't there, but there has been some good advice given for all events:

• Just because you can doesn't mean you should.  Events have a lot of moving parts and dominating the entire thing, while may be IC for your character, means you're OOCly ignoring the golden rule of the server.  Let others players shine too.  This is also about dialing back on your aggressive PCs if you want to be involved with other people outside of your IC friends.  
• Events are supposed to be fun.  PvP is generally not fun (well maybe for the winning player), so try to consider other people in these DM events (specifically the DM).  Not everyone can roll Player v player combat into the middle of an event.  Consider that the DM is taking time out of their day to run something (that should be) fun for your character.
  
• Don't make assumptions.  If someone engaged in PvP with out asking the DM, I'd get them out of the event fairly quick regardless if another player complained or not (unless I really knew everyone involved pretty well).  It's not a surprise that it derailed the event. 
• Just for event XP.  I would wager that people like the fun of the even over event XP.  Seems to be a rather jarring comment.
• Listen to the DM.  Don't take it personally.  

Maybe I'm too out of touch with the way NWN works these days, but this seems like basic common sense that we used to operate on.  

+1 to each bullet. And the last comment, that is how we used to roll to. Not sure what is going on CD right now that there OOC choices (aka character creation of character that are by nature conflicting) which are made to generate IC conflict.

[Garage Trashcan]

Oct 5, 2014 19:22:13 GMT -5 Edge said:

Oct 5, 2014 19:15:06 GMT -5 Vincent07 said:

Look.  I have been here since the beginning. 9 years.  And you know what? After 9 years I am TIRED of this kind of drama.  Get along, have fun with your stories.  Stop fighting amongst yourselves.

This this this this THIS. I am sick and tired of coming onto the forums every evening and seeing the same bunch of people whining and complaining and fighting. This is why I left in the first place, and every time I see it, it makes me wonder if it was really worth it to come back.

(It wasn't.)

[sinisteromnibus]

Oct 5, 2014 18:57:47 GMT -5 onivel said:

Oct 5, 2014 17:02:38 GMT -5 sinisteromnibus said:

Precisely my feelings as well. IF the character that created the initial conflict in the first place had originally been in the roster for the event it would be easier to side with those who say characters should be protected from the in-character repercussions of their actions, but let's look at what -actually- happened in two very good examples.

1. Voss kills any potential captives, making interrogation difficult - if not impossible. This, in turn, pisses off Zoey who had been trying to take a captive. Zoey responds to Voss' in-character actions with threatening pvp against him. As a player I -could- have complained OOC that Zoey is a higher level than me and I feel like my RP is being confined by virtue of the fact that pvp with Zoey blocks off avenues for my character to behave as he (and I) want him to. Should it be expected that Zoey just magically changes her mind and decides "Oh, it's fine. Go ahead and kill them. I wanted to kill you a few moments ago but I don't anymore. Not sure why, but there you have it." No more than it should be expected for a paladin not to slay a fiend that's killing a baby in front of him. Some things simply break the setting and the RP of other characters far too much to be allowed. Had Zoey PVPed Voss and Voss lost you know what I'd do? Have him behave like she wants! Why? Because realistically as a character he's not going to keep pushing a conflict he can't win because HE'S NOT A FUCKING IDIOT. (seriously, even with 10 wis death is a pretty persuasive argument.)

Minor Correction here... with Voss's ECL he is higher than Zoey. And I was fully prepared for IC consequences when I had her threaten him because she was rightfully pissed off. I also was a little OOCly pissed off as you stated you did something would have opposed instead of stating you were trying to do something in which case we could have made opposed rolls for it. Next time you plan to do something, please give someone the courtesy of trying to oppose the action instead of simply stating it. You could have stated " Voss then tries to cleave the guys head off " instead of just stating he did so. That left me no room to try to oppose the action and borders on god modding. I rolled with it and assumed then that she failed to notice his intent and simply followed up with her next course of action which was to threaten him. That said, in future I hope you do take things such as this in consideration as it borders on godmodding. 

As far as the quest goes.... I told the DM it was their quest.. their ruling. We needed to abide or drop. The DM will always have my support in such decisions even if I disagree with it.

Minor correction here: Voss's ECL is ooc info and shouldn't really factor into your rp if credence is to be given to the multiple posts of late -by admins- about ecls and their role on the server. I respect that you were "fully prepared for IC consequences" but considering I've had you personally attempt to tell me how to rp my character before in the past you'll understand if I don't take you seriously when you leap to the defense of players attempting to do the same. As far as "god-modding" goes, I have to disagree with you here. She rendered the man unconscious - I saw no roll to do that. Furthermore, exactly how would she stop Voss from cutting his head off? The man is unconscious, which means any attack on him is a coup de grace. Pray tell how your character is going to have any chance of stopping Voss from making any form of attack? I consciously did this in order to expedite what was a foregone conclusion (that the man would be undeniably dead) while limiting the potential for pvp. How's that? Well, unlike some I understand that pvp from words is far easier to stop than pvp from actions. I figured Zoey would threaten and Voss would react but has the option to do so without going into full pvp - a bit of verbal sparring and posturing and then we all move on our way since there's an epic cleric who can raise the dead anyway...

But let's say we had done things your way. You and I then hijack the event and spam the dm channel with rolls that contribute nothing to everyone else's fun. If Voss takes a threatening action against the downed man and Zoey intervenes we then engage in pvp - which drags the event even -more- off-topic and bogs the DM down even more when she was already overwhelmed by the number and temperament of the party. If this is truly an example of godmodding then as I did with your last botched "dm call" about how my character rps I'll defer to an admin for their take on the matter given both of our descriptions of what happened and my rationale.

Lastly, another correction to your post: you didn't tell "the DM" it was their quest. You told the party - or you told both. Which, honestly, if I was the DM I'd probably be a bit insulted to have a player presume they need to remind me that the quest I'd organized, planned, and prepared was in fact mine. It's somewhat condescending. That said, we chose to make our case to the DM to appeal their decision - in full transparency to the party so that others who disagreed could make it a discussion and not bombard the dm with tales in typical cloak and dagger tactics for conflict resolution. What did we receive in return? Simply that mantra of yours rather than any form of open discourse. I'm assuming it's likely the DM was being badgered in tells to the point where they felt the choice they made was the only one and hardly had a chance to see or consider opposed viewpoints. Even so, do notice that Bass and Voss left the event without fuss after that DM ruling. We said nothing to anyone afterwards - not the DM or players - in-character or ooc. We accepted the ruling without another word on it and I still support her ruling, even if I disagree. Hell, I even thanked her afterwards and wished her luck in the rest of the event (and no, I wasn't being snarky).

Yet, the -real- issue here is that immediately after this decision was made by the DM and by us someone - or someones - felt the need to drag it here to the forums to become an OOC mess that does nothing but shame us all along with the server in general. This mess being out here in the open for all to see serves no purpose but to continue to hurt the DM - who was very upset by the whole thing - and satisfy the egos of the same people who seem to consistently sacrifice others for the sake of said egos.

It's disgusting, and to be perfectly honest any person who wishes to have anything to do with someone like that can content themselves to have nothing to do with me IC or OOC in the future. I have no tolerance for such selfishness or petty immaturity in a place where we're all supposed to be adults.

Nevermore did the best she could with what she had, and I do not blame her for a single thing that transpired. Yeah, she may have made some mistakes with the party size or not considering just how volatile different personalities could be, but ultimately this did not happen and come to be the debacle that it is because of anything nevermore, dom101, myself, or anyone else who walked away from the event did. It became such a debacle because some people have no class, dignity, or tact to speak of. And you know who you are.

I am requesting - begging - as a player here who wants -everyone- to be able to have fun. If you are one of these people, please grow the up or find a server that expects to cater to your needs and no one else's.

[onivel]

Oct 5, 2014 20:20:43 GMT -5 sinisteromnibus said:

Oct 5, 2014 18:57:47 GMT -5 onivel said:

Minor Correction here... with Voss's ECL he is higher than Zoey. And I was fully prepared for IC consequences when I had her threaten him because she was rightfully pissed off. I also was a little OOCly pissed off as you stated you did something would have opposed instead of stating you were trying to do something in which case we could have made opposed rolls for it. Next time you plan to do something, please give someone the courtesy of trying to oppose the action instead of simply stating it. You could have stated " Voss then tries to cleave the guys head off " instead of just stating he did so. That left me no room to try to oppose the action and borders on god modding. I rolled with it and assumed then that she failed to notice his intent and simply followed up with her next course of action which was to threaten him. That said, in future I hope you do take things such as this in consideration as it borders on godmodding. 

As far as the quest goes.... I told the DM it was their quest.. their ruling. We needed to abide or drop. The DM will always have my support in such decisions even if I disagree with it.

Minor correction here: Voss's ECL is ooc info and shouldn't really factor into your rp if credence is to be given to the multiple posts of late -by admins- about ecls and their role on the server. I respect that you were "fully prepared for IC consequences" but considering I've had you personally attempt to tell me how to rp my character before in the past you'll understand if I don't take you seriously when you leap to the defense of players attempting to do the same. As far as "god-modding" goes, I have to disagree with you here. She rendered the man unconscious - I saw no roll to do that. Furthermore, exactly how would she stop Voss from cutting his head off? The man is unconscious, which means any attack on him is a coup de grace. Pray tell how your character is going to have any chance of stopping Voss from making any form of attack? I consciously did this in order to expedite what was a foregone conclusion (that the man would be undeniably dead) while limiting the potential for pvp. How's that? Well, unlike some I understand that pvp from words is far easier to stop than pvp from actions. I figured Zoey would threaten and Voss would react but has the option to do so without going into full pvp - a bit of verbal sparring and posturing and then we all move on our way since there's an epic cleric who can raise the dead anyway...

But let's say we had done things your way. You and I then hijack the event and spam the dm channel with rolls that contribute nothing to everyone else's fun. If Voss takes a threatening action against the downed man and Zoey intervenes we then engage in pvp - which drags the event even -more- off-topic and bogs the DM down even more when she was already overwhelmed by the number and temperament of the party. If this is truly an example of godmodding then as I did with your last botched "dm call" about how my character rps I'll defer to an admin for their take on the matter given both of our descriptions of what happened and my rationale.

Lastly, another correction to your post: you didn't tell "the DM" it was their quest. You told the party - or you told both. Which, honestly, if I was the DM I'd probably be a bit insulted to have a player presume they need to remind me that the quest I'd organized, planned, and prepared was in fact mine. It's somewhat condescending. That said, we chose to make our case to the DM to appeal their decision - in full transparency to the party so that others who disagreed could make it a discussion and not bombard the dm with tales in typical cloak and dagger tactics for conflict resolution. What did we receive in return? Simply that mantra of yours rather than any form of open discourse. I'm assuming it's likely the DM was being badgered in tells to the point where they felt the choice they made was the only one and hardly had a chance to see or consider opposed viewpoints. Even so, do notice that Bass and Voss left the event without fuss after that DM ruling. We said nothing to anyone afterwards - not the DM or players - in-character or ooc. We accepted the ruling without another word on it and I still support her ruling, even if I disagree. Hell, I even thanked her afterwards and wished her luck in the rest of the event (and no, I wasn't being snarky).

Yet, the -real- issue here is that immediately after this decision was made by the DM and by us someone - or someones - felt the need to drag it here to the forums to become an OOC mess that does nothing but shame us all along with the server in general. This mess being out here in the open for all to see serves no purpose but to continue to hurt the DM - who was very upset by the whole thing - and satisfy the egos of the same people who seem to consistently sacrifice others for the sake of said egos.

It's disgusting, and to be perfectly honest any person who wishes to have anything to do with someone like that can content themselves to have nothing to do with me IC or OOC in the future. I have no tolerance for such selfishness or petty immaturity in a place where we're all supposed to be adults.

Nevermore did the best she could with what she had, and I do not blame her for a single thing that transpired. Yeah, she may have made some mistakes with the party size or not considering just how volatile different personalities could be, but ultimately this did not happen and come to be the debacle that it is because of anything nevermore, dom101, myself, or anyone else who walked away from the event did. It became such a debacle because some people have no class, dignity, or tact to speak of. And you know who you are.

I am requesting - begging - as a player here who wants -everyone- to be able to have fun. If you are one of these people, please grow the up or find a server that expects to cater to your needs and no one else's.

I brought up the ECL because you brought up Zoey's level. You, by ignoring your ECL, in the comparison you misrepresented the case.

As far as what could I have done, attempted to deflect the strike, imposed myself in its way, a number of other similar types of things could have been done. Yes, we would have had to do rolls, and I am sorry if that would have slowed it down for you. Yes it could have gone a number of different ways. Not all of which would have lead to full on PVP.  I too would have tried to keep it from going into full on PVP for the sake of the group, but if it occurred I was prepared to do so. 

As for the talk to the DM, I DID tell them as they asked me for advise as another DM. I told them it was their choice what to do and I would support them no matter what. Please do not tell me what I did or did not do. I did not step in and tell Nevermore what to do, I simply reaffirmed Nevermore that they had backup no matter what they decided and offered my thoughts from my point of view (My reply was on DM channel so is not shown in screenie ... Zoey's line win the screenie was also supposed to go to DM channel as well)





I am sorry asking you to stop saying "C*NT" every 5 minutes because it is exceedingly offensive is considered telling you how to RP. 

[Fire Wraith]

Oct 5, 2014 20:20:36 GMT -5 Garage Trashcan said:

Oct 5, 2014 19:22:13 GMT -5 Edge said:

This this this this THIS. I am sick and tired of coming onto the forums every evening and seeing the same bunch of people whining and complaining and fighting. This is why I left in the first place, and every time I see it, it makes me wonder if it was really worth it to come back.

(It wasn't.)

You're not exactly being constructive here with comments like that.

[Fire Wraith]

Alright, for FUCK'S SAKE.

Look.

Do I need to shut the server down for a few days so people can get their shit together and at least PRETEND to act like adults?

[dom101]

Oct 5, 2014 21:11:34 GMT -5 Fire Wraith said:

Alright, for FUCK'S SAKE.

Look.

Do I need to shut the server down for a few days so people can get their shit together and at least PRETEND to act like adults?

No, I have extended apologies to those involved that I can.  I'll be avoiding extended RP with the server as a whole as I tend to do when something like this happens.  And I'm sorry it was brought to the forums rather than handled discreetly as was attempted by a few of us with Nevermore.

[trylobyte]

I'm bowing out for a few days myself.  This has gotten entirely out of control and my argumentativeness is NOT helping anything.

[sinisteromnibus]

Similarly I apologize for this mess on the forums. It makes us all look bad. I've apologized to nevermore and assured her what she did was right. I extend an apology as well to the players on the original roster because the event was made less fun by what transpired.

[Deleted]

Have you asked the same of yourself?

I am requesting - begging - as a player here who wants -everyone- to be able to have fun. If you are one of these people, please grow the up or find a server that expects to cater to your needs and no one else's.

Why is it that if folks don't agree with your idea of fun ICly that they are the one's that have to have their needs specifically catered to elsewhere?

Look I'll be honest, I grew up cutting my teeth and throughout all my time gaming with 1 core precept and rule: These RPG games (DnD especially) are about collaboration and cooperation.

That onus was on every player. And if you decided to make one that made cooperation and collaboration difficult for whatever reason that sh*t was on you. Not me, not the other players at the table, you. PERIOD.

From my first taste here CD SEEMED like that place. Now I'm not so sure. It seems like the onus is on everyone else to just let the antagonistic characters do whatever, regardless of how it infringes on someone else's definition of fun. So far those choices have been avoid it (essentially bow out of quests and areas where antagonist RP is frequently occuring), engage it (which will end in PvP which not all enjoy) or OOCly ignore it to get through the quest. Hmm sounds a bit like other characters been reduced to just being an NPC in an antagonistic character's single player game. That sucks.

But again,
There are plenty of other venues if you want to play an antagonistic character that prefers to settle IC disputes via violence or intimidation. Why does CD have to be that place?