DMXP rollover

[suddenperihelion]

So this is a fairly small suggestion, but currently DMxp is "use it or lose it" - meaning that if you gain more than you need for a given level, the excess is wasted. I've lost many thousands of DMxp from not hunting fast enough in low levels and it seems like the system as it stands encourages powergrinding through the low levels to avoid wasting DMxp.

My suggestion is a fairly minor one - to make it so that any excess DMxp beyond the minimum required rolls over into the DMxp pool for the next level. That way, there would be less of a long term penalty for failing to max out the combat xp on a given level.

Thank you for the consideration.

[onivel]

XP is XP for that level .. there is a minimum amount of DM XP required. If you get more than the minimum amount of DM XP during that level, well great.. you got some DM attention and some storytelling. It is not wasted.  That said, it will not apply to the next level. Considering the amount of DMXP needed vs your total, I don't think there is any "need to rush". The purpose is to moderate the advancement rate so people do not rush up to higher levels quickly. Current system does that just fine. If you don't hunt much and get most of your XP form the fairy drip or events, then great. But that XP is always towards your current level and not storehoused if you happen to go over the minimum required at that level.

[sinisteromnibus]

Apr 19, 2015 1:23:32 GMT -5 onivel said:

XP is XP for that level .. there is a minimum amount of DM XP required. If you get more than the minimum amount of DM XP during that level, well great.. you got some DM attention and some storytelling. It is not wasted.  That said, it will not apply to the next level. Considering the amount of DMXP needed vs your total, I don't think there is any "need to rush". The purpose is to moderate the advancement rate so people do not rush up to higher levels quickly. Current system does that just fine. If you don't hunt much and get most of your XP form the fairy drip or events, then great. But that XP is always towards your current level and not storehoused if you happen to go over the minimum required at that level.

Sums things up nicely. The DMXP requirement to level serves an important purpose in my mind. It represents to some lesser or greater extent the amount of development your character has experienced in that given level. Thus, I have to agree with oni here: it wouldn't make sense for it to apply to the next level or rollover.

Let us remember the XP is short for 'experience' and that levels represent your characters' accumulated experience with a given set of skills. In this case: combat in some form or fashion. In Paper and Pencil most of the time I believe a system like ours is used as well where a DM grants experience towers a level until the level is gained and any leftover is simply dropped. Many paper and pencil campaigns also just give a single level upon the completion of a quest - at the DM's discretion. So, in short, there really isn't a model out there in Dungeons and Dragons that compares with what's suggested that I'm aware of - at least not in the realm of 3.5 so far as I know.

I think this suggestion would work well / make sense in a less roleplay-intensive and more mmo-based environment or server, but here the mindset of 'use it or lose it' shouldn't be a focus. The experience should be considered a secondary reward and the stories that you build while getting that experience should be the true reward.

[suddenperihelion]

Apr 19, 2015 1:38:33 GMT -5 sinisteromnibus said:

'use it or lose it' shouldn't be a focus.

This is precisely what I am trying to say.

In Paper and Pencil most of the time I believe a system like ours is used as well where a DM grants experience towers a level until the level is gained and any leftover is simply dropped. Many paper and pencil campaigns also just give a single level upon the completion of a quest - at the DM's discretion. So, in short, there really isn't a model out there in Dungeons and Dragons that compares with what's suggested that I'm aware of - at least not in the realm of 3.5 so far as I know.

Check the 3.5 player's handbook, page 58. Excess experience points are not dropped except in extremely rare situations (and the exceptional situation where they are dropped can't possibly happen in C-D because of the magnitudes of individual rewards in C-D's xp system). Rollover is, if anything, more consistent with P&P.

It's also worth noting in addition that the existing system - a dual-pool model - is already pretty far afield of anything that exists in P&P, so neither is consistent with P&P. However, given the player's handbook reference I cite above, I think rollover is 'less inconsistent' with P&P.

Edit: added citation

[suddenperihelion]

I think this suggestion would work well / make sense in a less roleplay-intensive and more mmo-based environment or serverI think this suggestion would work well / make sense in a less roleplay-intensive and more mmo-based environment or server

I've been told by multiple people that my playstyle on my main (little or no dungeon running, and mostly doing tea and cookies style RP all the time) is heavily penalized at low levels by the xp system. So either they are wrong about that, or there is something I don't understand about this aspect of your response.

Edit: To clarify why I find this aspect of your response so baffling, the people who benefit from this suggestion would precisely be the people with the most roleplay-intensive and least action-intensive playstyle: that is, those that often do not max out their dungeon xp for a given level. But, Onival is right that the current system works okay - the tweak proposed might not be that important a priority since the group affected is only a very small percentage of the C-D community.

[ClockworkMayhem]

It's not actively penalized, no, but at the lower levels (before level 8, I believe), there is no DM XP requirement and you can get a full level's worth of experience strictly by running dungeons. Is it a requirement that you run dungeons? Of course not. You could gain your experience entirely through fairy ticks and non-combat DM events, if that's what you want to do - but it will more than likely be slower, depending on the number of events in which you participate.

At higher levels, however, the DM experience required increases, making dungeon-running less useful for leveling your character. Does this completely level the playing field between players who run dungeons and players who don't? Not entirely, no, but I don't think the system is an unfair one - especially when you consider that your play style is a rarer one, and the current system is designed in such a way to suit the standard majority.

Please understand I'm not criticizing your play style - just trying to offer an explanation as to why you're likely to level slower than someone who does run dungeons. I have a character that hasn't run a dungeon in the better part of six months due to her pregnancy, and leveling has been incredibly slow, so I feel your pain.

[Nokteronoth]

When you do get to a decent level (11-13 or so) I've noticed that the slow down is easy to handle. You don't have to go dungeon running often at all. A single trip or two will cap your combat stuff, and then you're just doing RP/events for a few weeks, unless you like looking for gear, gold, or exploration. (My favorite being the last one.)

From personal experience as a decently new player with Bela at 17 is that you're not really missing out by taking it slower. I kind of wish I did with Bela, I'm in between the 'phases' of other characters, not quite epic, not quite low enough to run other stuff.

That's personal opinion, though.

~BR

[onivel]

Two things to address, PnP and online gaming are two very different monsters. They cannot be equated exactly because the situations are far from identical.


Secondly, the total XP required is the same if you hunt or not. You are not losing anything. You are actively choosing to acquire your XP more from DMXP/Fairy as opposed to hunting.  The XP cap on hunting maintains a minimum amount of DM XP required to meet the next level.  You can certainly choose to exceed that minimal requirement if you desire. You can choose to forgo hunting in lieu of more DM XP. That is a choice of your play style. It is suboptimal for advancing at a faster pace, but how you choose to acquire your XP within the confines of the system is purely your choice. nobody says it must be at maximum pace. Hell, I would have a vault full of Epic chars if I was more "optimal". As it is, I only have one who achieved Epic and I retired her soon after.

[suddenperihelion]

Apr 19, 2015 9:31:46 GMT -5 onivel said:

Two things to address, PnP and online gaming are two very different monsters. They cannot be equated exactly because the situations are far from identical.


Secondly, the total XP required is the same if you hunt or not. You are not losing anything. You are actively choosing to acquire your XP more from DMXP/Fairy as opposed to hunting.  The XP cap on hunting maintains a minimum amount of DM XP required to meet the next level.  You can certainly choose to exceed that minimal requirement if you desire. You can choose to forgo hunting in lieu of more DM XP. That is a choice of your play style. It is suboptimal for advancing at a faster pace, but how you choose to acquire your XP within the confines of the system is purely your choice. nobody says it must be at maximum pace. Hell, I would have a vault full of Epic chars if I was more "optimal". As it is, I only have one who achieved Epic and I retired her soon after.

Agree on the first point.

On the second point, yes. It's not a big deal, just a small suggestion I had to try and narrow (I say "narrow" because I understand that it will never be eliminated) the gap a little bit between people who pursue a suboptimal playstyle and people who pursue an optimal playstyle. If keeping that gap in place is important to people, I'm fine with things being left as is!

[valiea987]

There's a related topic to DM XP while leveling that I told to White and Sudden, as I didn't know about it until I hit 11 on Angelina: If you do a quest for, say, 400 DM XP, and you only needed 200 to level, the other 200 into the next level isn't DM XP, it is regular monster XP. This isn't necessarily a major problem, you can work around it by just doing quests to get just before leveling up, and letting ticks do the rest. But then I wondered, is this the case for event XP? As in, if you are 100 XP away from leveling, and you are in an event for hours, and get a 600 XP reward, is only 100 of that now DM XP? I don't know about this latter scenario, as I haven't hit such a situation yet.

It may not be much of an issue. Now that I know about it, it is easy to work around and not "waste" DM XP by clipping it. Just something I noticed that I thought was related to the topic of "use it or lose it".

[ladybug]

If you're aware you're close to level, I think most DMs are all right with you dropping party to receive XP separately so you don't miss out on that extra 200.

[onivel]

Apr 19, 2015 12:31:45 GMT -5 ladybug said:

If you're aware you're close to level, I think most DMs are all right with you dropping party to receive XP separately so you don't miss out on that extra 200.

Correct.. just advise the DM.. they will usually give you just the XP you need to level.. let you level then grant you the rest