Rebalancing Weapons!

[Voice of Kerensky]

Jun 1, 2015 22:52:39 GMT -5 suddenperihelion said:

Strictly speaking, 2d5 is possible in NWN. The game engine doesn't require physically possible dice =D

Yea, but..

[Remmy]

The changes I would personally like to see would be changing spears to one-handed, as it is possible in NWN and the animations aren't bad for it, particularly with the warrior fighting stance. Right now spears are just a crappy alternative to halberds, greatswords, and greataxes.

I would also give some love to light flails and heavy flails. They have a comically low crit multiplier and base damage for a big spiked mace flung around on a chain with a stick. Their primary advantage in PnP is negated in NWN as they don't get a bonus to disarm checks and any weapon can be used to make trip (knockdown) attempts, not just flails and other special weapons. I would increase light flails to 1d10/x3 and heavy flails to 2d6 or 2d8/x3, removing the 19-20 crit range heavy flails have.

[Yaldabaoth]

Just going to chime in here.  How is 1d10, 18-20/x2 fair for a Katana, when a Bastard Sword requires the same feat and is 1d10 19-20/x2?  Make it 1d8, 18-20/x2.  That makes it more like a bastard scimitar.

[suddenperihelion]

Jun 2, 2015 10:35:28 GMT -5 Yaldabaoth said:

Just going to chime in here.  How is 1d10, 18-20/x2 fair for a Katana, when a Bastard Sword requires the same feat and is 1d10 19-20/x2?  Make it 1d8, 18-20/x2.  That makes it more like a bastard scimitar.

That's pretty close to what Psappho is suggesting in the second post!

[Deleted]

The Katana is going to 1d8 18-20/x2.  As said in another post (I think in the other thread), the damage is being reduced to increase the threat range... making it the scimitar to the bastard sword's longsword.

[valiea987]

Might be best to take these things one at a time, since things are getting messy:

Thought 1:

If the katana threat range is moved to 18-20, then it would likely be best for the original idea of making it 1d8. That way it is 1d2 greater than the scimitar.

This is the same amount of movement from longsword (1d8) -> bastard sword (1d10). This is what is already planned from the posts I saw... But there was also talk of maybe buffing the Bastard Sword instead, so:

Thought 2:

The second topic getting mixed with the first is: Maybe the 1d2 increase in damage isn't worth the extra feat. Should it be 2d2 instead? In other words, should it be 1d10 18-20 Katana and 1d12 19-20 Bastard Sword?

I think one thing to then keep in mind is that the Dwarven Waraxe then essentially becomes a 1 handed Greataxe, and the Bastard Sword becomes a 1 handed Greatsword (with a minimum damage of 1 instead of 2).

Maybe this would justify boosting the damage of the Greatsword/Greataxe a bit. But that then introduces the problem of the dice. I think SP said that unnatural dice can happen in the engine, but that may be undesirable just for D&D authenticity. Adding a d2 would be 1d14 or 2d7. Or, they could be brought together and both get 2d2 added, so they both are 2d8 weapons.

This would make the weapon spread look like:

Martial 1h:
Scimitar: 1d6 18-20/x2.
Battleaxe: 1d8 20/x3
Longsword: 1d8 19-20/x2.

Exotic 1h (+1d4 from Exotic Feat):
Katana: 1d10 18-20/x2
Dwarven Waraxe: 1d12 20/x3
Bastard Sword: 1d12 19-20/x2

Martial 2h (+1d from One Hand->Two Hand):
: 2d6 18-20/x2
Greataxe: 2d8 20/x3
Greatsword: 2d8 19-20/x2

That's one way to look at it. It does sort of upset the 1d12 vs 2d6 distinction between the Greatsword and Greataxe, but maybe that isn't too significant?

[Voice of Kerensky]

Jun 2, 2015 11:24:10 GMT -5 valiea987 said:

Might be best to take these things one at a time, since things are getting messy:

Thought 1:

If the katana threat range is moved to 18-20, then it would likely be best for the original idea of making it 1d8. That way it is 1d2 greater than the scimitar.

This is the same amount of movement from longsword (1d8) -> bastard sword (1d10). This is what is already planned from the posts I saw... But there was also talk of maybe buffing the Bastard Sword instead, so:

Thought 2:

The second topic getting mixed with the first is: Maybe the 1d2 increase in damage isn't worth the extra feat. Should it be 2d2 instead? In other words, should it be 1d10 18-20 Katana and 1d12 19-20 Bastard Sword?

I think one thing to then keep in mind is that the Dwarven Waraxe then essentially becomes a 1 handed Greataxe, and the Bastard Sword becomes a 1 handed Greatsword (with a minimum damage of 1 instead of 2).

Maybe this would justify boosting the damage of the Greatsword/Greataxe a bit. But that then introduces the problem of the dice. I think SP said that unnatural dice can happen in the engine, but that may be undesirable just for D&D authenticity. Adding a d2 would be 1d14 or 2d7. Or, they could be brought together and both get 2d2 added, so they both are 2d8 weapons.

This would make the weapon spread look like:

Martial 1h:
Scimitar: 1d6 18-20/x2.
Battleaxe: 1d8 20/x3
Longsword: 1d8 19-20/x2.

Exotic 1h (+1d4 from Exotic Feat):
Katana: 1d10 18-20/x2
Dwarven Waraxe: 1d12 20/x3
Bastard Sword: 1d12 19-20/x2

Martial 2h (+1d from One Hand->Two Hand):
: 2d6 18-20/x2
Greataxe: 2d8 20/x3
Greatsword: 2d8 19-20/x2

That's one way to look at it. It does sort of upset the 1d12 vs 2d6 distinction between the Greatsword and Greataxe, but maybe that isn't too significant?

The general idea here is okay but you don't need to get that wild with it. As it stands, the greatsword + greataxe only have roughly 1 more damage average than bastard sword/katana/dwarven waraxe. I'd look at upping the min on greataxe before anything else. Keep in mind that while the base damage is good, some of the real value in using 2 handers is in the 1.5x strength mod. To be honest, I'm not wholly opposed to the 2d8 suggestion either, but am trying to keep the same rough base damage 'cap' as now.

Personally, I'm not really sure why greataxe and greatsword don't have the same damage, when the general trend expressed in other weapon comparisons is 19-20x2 = 20x3 at the same damage values/same damage types; a simple calculation shows them to be equal in most circumstances. I'd just up the min of the greataxe to distinguish it from dwarven axe, and give the halberd a small boost while we're at it.

Here's a little bit more of an in-depth rework that keeps close to current values. Just non-light martial and above weapons for now.

Rapier = 1d6 piercing, 18-20x2
Scimitar = 1d6 slashing, 18-20x2
Longsword = 1d8 slashing+piercing, 19-20x2
Warhammer = 1d8 bludgeoning, 20x3
Battle Axe = 2d4 slashing, 20x3 (I felt this needed a bump, as warhammer has the better damage type, longsword has more damage types and scimitar the typically better crit profile)
Light Flail = 1d8 bludgeoning, 19-20x2

Katana = 1d10 slashing, 18-20x2 (gains avg 2 damage over scimitar for feat expenditure)
Bastard Sword = 1d12 slashing+piercing, 19-20x2 (gains avg 2 damage over longsword for feat expenditure)
Dwarven Axe = 1d12 slashing+piercing, 20x3 (gains avg 1.5 damage and a damage type over battle axe for feat expenditure)

Greataxe = 2d6 slashing 20x3
Greatsword  = 2d6 slashing 19-20x2
Halberd = 1d12 slashing+piercingmmm 20x3
Heavy Flail = 1d12 bludgeoning+piercingm 19-20x2
Scythe = 2d4 slashing+piercingm 20x4 (I hate this thing thematically and wouldn't mind seeing halberd trade places with it, but it is what it is...)

Dire Mace = 1d12 bludgeoning 20x2
Two-Handed Sword = 1d12 slashing 19-20x2
Double Axe = 1d12 slashing 20x3

or

Dire Mace = 1d12 bludgeoning, 19-20x2 or 20x3
Two-Handed Sword = 1d12 slashing+piercing, 19-20x2
Double Axe = 2d6 slashing, 20x3

(I prefer this of the two, as it's basically in line with warhammer/flail vs longsword vs battleaxe)

[Nokteronoth]

Punky comes along with a handy-dandy chart.


~BR

[Voice of Kerensky]

Jun 2, 2015 15:46:52 GMT -5 Nokteronoth said:

Punky comes along with a handy-dandy chart.


~BR

Thanks for that. Knew it was around somewhere. Uses the same calcs that I use.

There are several things the above guide does not take account for:

The value of multi-type in bypassing specific DR.
DPS adjusted for crit immunity--a rather important one on CD given the prevalence of undead and constructs.

[allatum]

Jun 1, 2015 23:58:37 GMT -5 Remmy said:

The changes I would personally like to see would be changing spears to one-handed, as it is possible in NWN and the animations aren't bad for it, particularly with the warrior fighting stance. Right now spears are just a crappy alternative to halberds, greatswords, and greataxes.

And maybe finessable if that could be done >_>

Never understood why something like spears and quarterstaves couldn't technically be finesse weapons given how they'd be used in real life. Unless we're talking longspears and pikes which would have no grand use in NWN to begin with since reach weapons aren't really a thing.

[suddenperihelion]

The one-handed (shortspear) spears in p&p do 1d6 damage. Larger, two-handed spears do 1d8 damage.

It'd be pretty simple to add in a 1d6, one-handed shortspear baseitem. Though you'd need nwnx to hook up the appropriate weapon feats to it (unless you cannibalized the weapon feats and 2da entries from some other weapon).

Making a weapon finesseable is something that can be set with nwnx.

[Remmy]

You could just rename the existing spear to a short spear and make it one-handed, since the models ingame pretty much are short spears. I don't think the damage should be lowered, though. Lowering it to 1d6 would just result in it being ignored in the one-handed category as it is in the two-handed one for the same reason, as there would be better alternatives out there. 1d8 and x3 crit range make it comparable to a longsword or battleaxe.

[suddenperihelion]

A one-handed simple weapon that does 1d8 damage and has a 20/x3 critical threat range would be entirely superior to other simple weapons. In fact, it would be as good as a martial weapon.

A spear that was that good would work better as a martial weapon than a simple weapon.

[valiea987]

A one handed spear would probably be a martial weapon I'd think.

[Remmy]

Would probably be better as a martial weapon though correct me if I am wrong but doesn't the simple weapon heavy mace have a x3 multiplier, same as the martial weapon warhammer and both have 1d8 damage? Granted you can't take feats in heavy mace because it wasn't in base NWN.