Oddities with brewing potions

[Mystic Warden]

Potion brewing is working on a strange way:

1) Brewing a potion costs more than buying it.
2) The brewed potion works on a pre-set weak level (just like the ones bought from NPCs).

There are exceptions from both of these above, but it is true for the majority.

(Unrelated addendum to #1 above: I many times see the very same potion (with same caster level) at two very different price levels in the pawnshop. Like half price for one. Goes the same for scrolls, too.)

All in all, it could be more fun.

I would suggest to make player brewed potions to use the brewer's caster level, not the 'shop standard' level. If this is not possible, than to set the player brewed potions to have a higher fix level than the widely available potions from NPCs. That would improve the experience of potion use for everybody. Brewer PCs could offer something worthwhile extra to the other PCs compared to the shop level which leads to much more character interactions and RP possibilities.

Thoughts?

[Edge]

Jul 14, 2015 10:35:39 GMT -5 Mystic Warden said:

Potion brewing is working on a strange way:

1) Brewing a potion costs more than buying it.

This is tied to the coded-in costs for the item creation feats. You'll have to ask Vincent or someone else with coding know-how if changing that is both possible and reasonable.

2) The brewed potion works on a pre-set weak level (just like the ones bought from NPCs).

....

I would suggest to make player brewed potions to use the brewer's caster level, not the 'shop standard' level.

Unfortunately, I'm afraid you don't understand how Cast Spell items such as potions, wands, scrolls, etc. work in NWN.

In NWN, all the Cast Spell abilities have pre-set caster levels. Sometimes, in some cases, there are multiple version of the same spell at different caster levels - for example, we have the Lesser Heal Potions that cast Heal at caster level 6, then the full Heal Potions that cast Heal at caster level 11. But those are the exception, more than the rule; the vast majority of spells in the Cast Spell option in the Toolset - which is the same list that is drawn from when using Brew Potion, Craft Wand, or Scribe Scroll - only have one option, and its caster level is set.

The reason potions always come out to such low levels is because the pre-set caster level for most spells that can be turned into potions is set low.

If Vincent really wanted to, he could add extra options to that list, with higher caster levels, or just change the caster level on the option that is already in the list. But:
* one, it would require a hak update before it could be changed;
* two, it will affect all items that have that Cast Spell property, not just player-made potions;
* three, it will adjust the cost of creating the item accordingly;
* and four, it will require that every shop that sells that item will need to have its costs manually adjusted there - we do not use the standard NWN shop pricing, but rather have each item's cost manually entered when created.

All in all, this is working pretty much as designed by Bioware. Brew Potion's a pretty wonky feat. (And IMO not very useful or helpful, primarily due to its level limitations.) There's a reason you don't see people take it more often.

As to why the potions are showing up in the shop at different prices, no idea. Probably a bug.

[Vincent07]

Brew Potion was not altered from its vanilla setup.

This is all explained on the wiki:
nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Brew_potion

As Edge mentioned,  the CL of item properties, this applies to potions/scrolls/items etc... is defined in a hak.  In many cases they are intentionally low so that casting the spell is always more powerful than the item/scroll/potion version.

[Fire Wraith]

It's usually the minimum level to cast the spell.  The ones that are higher have been explicitly defined in the haks as such.  Meaning, there's a line that says "Darkness, level 20" instead of "Darkness, level 3".

[Mystic Warden]

Thanks for the answers guys! <3 ya all!

How about making two versions from each potion? One 'basic' version, on the lowest possible caster level, also sold by shops/NPCs and one on a higher level which are not appearing in shops but only available through brewing when the necessary caster level is achieved? If I understood Edge's description correctly than technicaly it would be doable (please correct me if I am wrong).

On an other hand I saw some exotic potions in the pawnshop (like Elven Bowmens Tonic, Elixir of Mystic Talent, etc.). Is there a way that a brewer PC could create those potions, too? If not hard-coded but simply by catching a DM topside who adds the potions to the brewer's inventory and reduces the gold and XP?

[Edge]

Technically doable, but a massive deal of extra hak work for Vincent.

For every single spell he wanted to make available in that way, he would have to add an extra line in the Cast Spell menu. Then he would have to add, again individually for every single spell, an extra catch in the Brew Potion scripts to make sure it used only the higher level version - and that would have the issue of being very expensive, as the costs are based on the caster level of the Cast Spell option - which I believe was your original complaint. The prices would be higher in this case.

Between updating the haks, adding new resources like tilesets and monsters, and working on classes like Swordmage and Warlock, Vince has a lot on his plate right now, and it's very unlikely this would be added, as the real value of it is very minor. Very few people use Brew Potion, and you can only brew potions of spells of 3rd level spells and lower; anything higher has to be made as an Elixir (which basically functions as a potion "but isn't" because potions can't technically be higher than 3rd level, though we have made several exceptions on CD for various reasons) using Craft Wondrous Item.

Those exotic Special Power potions do not work. They were part of the stuff we carried over from Myth Drannor back in 2005ish, but we do not have the scripts they were attached to anymore. Someone would have to code those properties again from scratch, and I'm not sure anyone really remembers what they did anymore. They're basically just loot for gold now, and don't have any actual use other than being sold.

[suddenperihelion]

Jul 20, 2015 13:45:00 GMT -5 Edge said:

Technically doable, but a massive deal of extra hak work for Vincent.

For every single spell he wanted to make available in that way, he would have to add an extra line in the Cast Spell menu. Then he would have to add, again individually for every single spell, an extra catch in the Brew Potion scripts to make sure it used only the higher level version - and that would have the issue of being very expensive, as the costs are based on the caster level of the Cast Spell option - which I believe was your original complaint. The prices would be higher in this case.

Between updating the haks, adding new resources like tilesets and monsters, and working on classes like Swordmage and Warlock, Vince has a lot on his plate right now, and it's very unlikely this would be added, as the real value of it is very minor. Very few people use Brew Potion, and you can only brew potions of spells of 3rd level spells and lower; anything higher has to be made as an Elixir (which basically functions as a potion "but isn't" because potions can't technically be higher than 3rd level, though we have made several exceptions on CD for various reasons) using Craft Wondrous Item.

Those exotic Special Power potions do not work. They were part of the stuff we carried over from Myth Drannor back in 2005ish, but we do not have the scripts they were attached to anymore. Someone would have to code those properties again from scratch, and I'm not sure anyone really remembers what they did anymore. They're basically just loot for gold now, and don't have any actual use other than being sold.

There's a much easier way to do this for crafted spellcasting items such as wands and potions. Just store the desired caster level as a local variable on the item, and then script the GetCasterLevel function to use that variable for items that have it. This way, you'd only have to do it once, and it'd work for every spell.

This would only take a minor amount of additional scripting work (and no hak work) for a server like CD that already has the underlying infrastructure of a GetCasterLevel hook for other reasons anyway.

However, given that Vincent said it is intentional that player-crafted items use weaker caster levels than p&p rules dictate, the status quo will likely be maintained for balance reasons.

[Mystic Warden]

Jul 20, 2015 13:45:00 GMT -5 Edge said:

Technically doable, but a massive deal of extra hak work for Vincent.

For every single spell he wanted to make available in that way, he would have to add an extra line in the Cast Spell menu. Then he would have to add, again individually for every single spell, an extra catch in the Brew Potion scripts to make sure it used only the higher level version - and that would have the issue of being very expensive, as the costs are based on the caster level of the Cast Spell option - which I believe was your original complaint. The prices would be higher in this case.

Right now the brewed potions are more expensive than the ones in the shop but are on the same power level. This combination of two factors makes it unfun. I think it would be okay to have more expensive potions if they are also more powerful at the same time. Or having the same potions, but brewing them would be cheaper than buying them.

Jul 20, 2015 13:45:00 GMT -5 Edge said:

Between updating the haks, adding new resources like tilesets and monsters, and working on classes like Swordmage and Warlock, Vince has a lot on his plate right now, and it's very unlikely this would be added, as the real value of it is very minor. Very few people use Brew Potion, and you can only brew potions of spells of 3rd level spells and lower; anything higher has to be made as an Elixir (which basically functions as a potion "but isn't" because potions can't technically be higher than 3rd level, though we have made several exceptions on CD for various reasons) using Craft Wondrous Item.

Good thing I took both Brew Potion and Craft Wondrous Item with Sindel. So.... how can I make some elixirs?

As for the workload: of course the decision about what to implement and how is in Vince's hand. But I think an important reason why very few people takes Brew Potion is the current system being more "meh" than "cool!"

[Nevermore]

My experience with brew potion and even scribe scroll on my craftier mage, Bethra, is that people want (and done care how much it is) what the stores don't already have. So the potions of displacements, greater magic weapons, keen, true strike. Think higher level non caster or UMD using PCS.  So I have no problem explaining the "Difficulty" of the potion brewing process for Spell X and asking 2000 lyons a bottle or for even cheaper if they buy in bulk, Seeing as she give a "Dwarven Baker's Dozen Deal (TM)"

As long as it promotes rp it all a good thing in my opinion. Are you going to get rich doing it? Nope. Are you adding a dimension to you character and opening opportunities of rp with it? Yes. 

If its lack of interest, try painting a poster that your character hangs up around Arabel advertising exceptional quality and affordable priced potions. I can guarantee if my PC Vivian knew INCLY of a local potion brewer casting displacement. She would be on her doorstep the next morning willing drop $75,000 - $100,000 on what you have, and as a down payment for her place on your list for later batches.  

I know it might not be fun when you just craft the basic ones, and not adding what would be your skill level or any of the fancy metamagic to potions, but considering you are providing what is not already around.. its already that much better. 

All in all I really like brew potion and think its an important feat for casters that are focusing on crafting, because, ...one, its so rp heavy and immersive.. two.. its actually quite needed. So I'll leave my dorky rant on how awesome in game crafting already is and hope maybe I sorta inspired some of you to take a fresh look at it. 

[Edge]

Good thing I took both Brew Potion and Craft Wondrous Item with Sindel. So.... how can I make some elixirs?

Can't currently be done, as Craft Wondrous Item hasn't been scripted in yet and we're no longer doing the forum-request crafting.

[Mystic Warden]

Jul 24, 2015 17:06:26 GMT -5 Nevermore said:

My experience with brew potion and even scribe scroll on my craftier mage, Bethra, is that people want (and done care how much it is) what the stores don't already have. So the potions of displacements, greater magic weapons, keen, true strike. Think higher level non caster or UMD using PCS.  So I have no problem explaining the "Difficulty" of the potion brewing process for Spell X and asking 2000 lyons a bottle or for even cheaper if they buy in bulk, Seeing as she give a "Dwarven Baker's Dozen Deal (TM)"

As long as it promotes rp it all a good thing in my opinion. Are you going to get rich doing it? Nope. Are you adding a dimension to you character and opening opportunities of rp with it? Yes. 

If its lack of interest, try painting a poster that your character hangs up around Arabel advertising exceptional quality and affordable priced potions. I can guarantee if my PC Vivian knew INCLY of a local potion brewer casting displacement. She would be on her doorstep the next morning willing drop $75,000 - $100,000 on what you have, and as a down payment for her place on your list for later batches.  

I know it might not be fun when you just craft the basic ones, and not adding what would be your skill level or any of the fancy metamagic to potions, but considering you are providing what is not already around.. its already that much better. 

All in all I really like brew potion and think its an important feat for casters that are focusing on crafting, because, ...one, its so rp heavy and immersive.. two.. its actually quite needed. So I'll leave my dorky rant on how awesome in game crafting already is and hope maybe I sorta inspired some of you to take a fresh look at it. 

Oh, when I am back I will make sure to run into Vivian, packed with a cartload of potions...

[Mystic Warden]

Jul 24, 2015 18:51:11 GMT -5 Edge said:

Good thing I took both Brew Potion and Craft Wondrous Item with Sindel. So.... how can I make some elixirs?

Can't currently be done, as Craft Wondrous Item hasn't been scripted in yet and we're no longer doing the forum-request crafting.

Any ideas when might it happen? Am I right to assume that it will need a hak update?

[Deleted]

Elixers are up for debate, whether we'll allow them or not.

[lb7]

There's really only seven elixirs in Craft Wonderous items anyway (If you go by the SRD, that is). At least five of them would be hard to implement (And really they only give skill additions anyways, with the exception of the truth elixir) which just leaves the elixir of fire breath and elixir of true sight. Elixirs made from that feat don't get anymore powerful then that, unless we're going by a different table... but this debate is probably for another thread entirely.