CD Dungeons

[sinisteromnibus]

^ +1 to the above. FW pretty much said what I was trying to with lots less words.

[trylobyte]

Vince, I appreciate the insight into how you balance dungeons.  And I'm inclined to agree with your approach, too - If a dungeon has fallen out of its range, buff the whole dungeon so it's back up to the challenge level you want it at.  It is more time-consuming, but results in a more cohesive, more fun experience overall.  And liches should be near-epic encounters.

I'd like to comment on Sinister's assessment of Rogue and Cleric, as well, since it seems we have different opinions on the usefulness and validity of these classes.

Rogues...  aren't really required anymore if you stick to the 'core' dungeons.  They're required for some of the more esoteric or exotic ones, but most of the time you're fine not having one.  Traps never move so you can either 'dwarf' them or Dimension Door over them using one of the many available items that do that.  Doors can be bashed by a sufficiently high-Str character, and most chests can be bashed open too.  This was a very, very welcome change when it went in too because of another problem - There are very few rogues.  Most 'rogues' are characters with a one-point dip into Open Locks so they can use buffs and high-level tools to open doors because that's all they need, else they're multiclassed into something with a bit more direct combat potential when they can't score sneaks.  With the core dungeons at teen levels being almost entirely undead and golems, true rogues are all but guaranteed to not have any fun unless they have regular, reliable companionship.

Clerics, on the other hand, are one of the game's most powerful classes.  There's a reason that most people into D&D 3.0/3.5 considers Cleric to be unmatched by any class except Wizard.  Only vulnerable to dispels, which are infrequent until you get to high teens and epic levels and 'only' leave them with the same AC as an equal-level fighter, a well-built, well-equipped cleric is a force of nature.  Before the latest changes I knew not one but two clerics who could solo gnolls easily, neither of them especially well-built.  When they hit epic level they get more epic spells available to them than mages do on top of being able to use the best defensive equipment in the game while having spells that compensate for every other weakness they have except getting dispelled (and those dispels become less of a problem as they get higher into epic levels).  

And since I mentioned it, perhaps there is a bit of a problem that there are a group of 'core' dungeons from which most parties will never stray.  These tend to be the ones that are both easy to get to and provide good loot for the time and effort involved.  In short, the most profitable dungeons.  These dungeons tend to be the ones that see most of the time and effort from Vince because they're the ones everyone knows, the ones everyone runs, and thus the ones most likely to cause issues.  Perhaps these dungeons should be used as a standard for a balanced party, then offer more specialist fare that's easier with some parties but harder with others?

[Vincent07]

I'm going to disagree with you on rogues, as there are a fair few chests and doors with DC 50+ locks that cannot be bashed open still.  Nor do I plan to change that.

As to traps, good point.  Perhaps I'll start moving trap triggers and up the search DC a bit.  Doesn't particularly solve the 'it's easier to dwarf it' problem, which is more of an epic issue than anything else, as trap damage becomes less of a concern when HP breaks 400+, especially if someone has evasion.   But then, I plan to put in higher powered traps that hurt more, so that you need to disarm them.  We'll see.  something to consider at least.  There are also some instances of non -single shot- traps with DCs over 35, which require a rogue to get rid of.  And if it's on a plot door, well you aren't getting through that without one either.  Not that there's many of those, not in the more commonly visited areas at least.

[Wittle Dreamer]

Why is it always 'buff the stuff' instead of finding an alternate means to make it good? Why always look for reasons to make a PC have a super hard time to clear a dungeon instead of making the dungeon itself fun to go through without being screwed over? I don't like how anything I read in this thread basically spells out "Let's fuck over the PCs because they seem to be having a too easy time."

It just confuses me especially as lots of people here seem to be asking for things to be made easier, but now where they asked for it things are being made the reverse.

[Edge]

I honestly don't get how you're getting "screw the players" out of this.

I don't know how I can spell this out more simply. The dungeon is intended for higher-level characters than it is currently being run by. This is not what was intended by the designer. That requires adjustment.

It's not about screwing people over, it's about making the challenge appropriate for the intended level. I get that a lot of people want things to be easier, but that's not the intended design in this case - it's already too easy for the intended design. Which has been the point the staff has been trying to make for this entire conversation. Hells, Vincent wrote a mini-essay about how his own low-teens character can solo the place up to a certain point, and how that's not supposed to be possible.

If you've got people in the low- to mid-teens running successfully through a dungeon intended for high-teens to twenty, something is wrong, and either the dungeon needs to be scaled down to the low/mid-teens level as a whole, basic enemies and bosses and loot and everything (which Vincent said he does not want to do, there are other dungeons for that level range) or everything needs to be scaled up because it no longer meets the appropriate challenge for the level intended. It's a work in progress - as is just about everything on this server - and thus far only the boss has been actually adjusted, the enemies and the dungeon itself still need tweaking.

I honestly cannot fathom how to explain this more clearly. What you want is not what the designer intended. It's like going to McDonald's then complaining that you can't get a hot dog.

Or let's try it from another example from in-game. Say we had a player running the Goblin Bolthole in Hullack Forest repeatedly. They come to the staff complaining the area is too easy and has no challenge, and that the builders should make it more difficult, adding higher-level spawns, nastier traps, and so forth. The problem is that the Bolthole is a low-level area intended for characters between 7th and 10th level (give or take); the character requesting this is likely too high level for the dungeon, and should have moved on to other dungeons to meet the appropriate challenge for their level. The problem we're having with Wyvernspur's Crypt is this exact same thing, but in reverse - people going in there are, in many cases, too low level, and want the challenge scaled down rather than going elsewhere intended for their current level (say, Witchlord's Keep or the Ogre's Redoubt in the Stonelands or the Orc Lairs in the King's Wood or Thunder Gap).

[Wittle Dreamer]

Aug 9, 2015 7:25:36 GMT -5 Edge said:

I honestly don't get how you're getting "screw the players" out of this.

I don't know how I can spell this out more simply. The dungeon is intended for higher-level characters than it is currently being run by. This is not what was intended by the designer. That requires adjustment.

It's not about screwing people over, it's about making the challenge appropriate for the intended level. I get that a lot of people want things to be easier, but that's not the intended design in this case - it's already too easy for the intended design. Which has been the point the staff has been trying to make for this entire conversation. Hells, Vincent wrote a mini-essay about how his own low-teens character can solo the place up to a certain point, and how that's not supposed to be possible.

If you've got people in the low- to mid-teens running successfully through a dungeon intended for high-teens to twenty, something is wrong, and either the dungeon needs to be scaled down to the low/mid-teens level as a whole, basic enemies and bosses and loot and everything (which Vincent said he does not want to do, there are other dungeons for that level range) or everything needs to be scaled up because it no longer meets the appropriate challenge for the level intended. It's a work in progress - as is just about everything on this server - and thus far only the boss has been actually adjusted, the enemies and the dungeon itself still need tweaking.

I honestly cannot fathom how to explain this more clearly. What you want is not what the designer intended. It's like going to McDonald's then complaining that you can't get a hot dog.

It was simply the impression I was getting as a few people found the dungeons hard, even for their level range but then I read things were ment to become harder, such as traps. However there are many different views here, from all sides.

[Deleted]

I have two questions for those finding it too hard, then.  What level is your character, and what level is the rest of the party they are with?

If you are in a party whose average level is 17+ with at least 4 people, then yes.  We may have made the dungeon too difficult for its intended level range.  However, if you are a group of primarily 10-15s in the dungeon, then no.  The area is at the difficulty intended.

The major problem here is that we have witnessed certain players escorting lower-level characters through high-end dungeons.  So the perception has become "well, this is meant for my lower character to be able to run."  That's a misconception.  See the Dungeon List (found HERE) for a more accurate list of what levels dungeons are intended for.  (As a note, these areas are constantly in a place of rebalancing.)

As Edge said:  if we make the place "easier," the loot is going to be adjusted accordingly down to only T2/T3 gear.

[lb7]

It's worth pointing something out here, and at least one of you had already admitted to such, but if we're trying to make a dungeon reflect it's desired challenge level, it would convey a better message to some of the playerbase in general to focus on the whole picture of the dungeon, as opposed to the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. I can't really speak for a lot of the dungeons that are around, but speaking on the Wyvernspur crypt, it's final boss has been modified three times in the past three months (And actually, the dungeon itself has been modified even more times then that, in it's past here).

One of those modifications was a fix.

Two of those modifications was an increase in AC and HP.

Nothing has been done to really change the rest of the dungeon to reflect the desired challenges of this particular dungeon, and all of these updates and modifications are at least one month apart from each other. To me I feel that this doesn't really convey the message to people that I see posted here as it is simply more... "Oh, so and so are finishing this dungeon? Ridiculous. Let's make the end of it harder."

[Fire Wraith]

A dungeon with level 18 reward chests is either going to have an appropriate challenge for level 18ish characters, or we're going to change the reward chests to match where it's at.

We're not going to make it easier to farm higher level gear, for reasons I've previously stated.

[Deleted]

Lb7, Vincent is already working on that. If you read his post he says that it needs to be worked on and it will be worked on.

[lb7]

I understand that. I was merely putting in a perspective of some people of where they (some of the players) get this feeling of being screwed over comes from, in that there's a huge gap in the challenges of a boss, as opposed to the challenge level on the rest of the dungeon, especially when you go over the change logs and see the patterns. Granted, I can't really speak for a number of the other dungeons because I have not seen them first hand; only complaints that I cannot verify the validity of, so I won't get into them.

[Vincent07]

Aug 9, 2015 12:34:10 GMT -5 lb7 said:

To me I feel that this doesn't really convey the message to people that I see posted here as it is simply more... "Oh, so and so are finishing this dungeon? Ridiculous. Let's make the end of it harder."

I'll say this.  This is not at all my train of thought or intent.  Insinuating that it is, is frankly rather annoying.

I do look at who completed dungeons, especially if I notice they are running a place constantly.

As I mentioned previously, the main issue with Wyvernspur, is that the current challenge of the dungeon does not match the intended level range.  Additionally, Wyvernspur herself had waaaay too low of AC and HP given her respective level, which made the encounter way too easy for one that resulted in tier 4 loot.  

As it stands, I'm just going to revamp the entire place so that it fits the intended level range of 16-19ish.  The area will also receive some visual updates.

[sinisteromnibus]

Wyvernspur is not the first dungeon to go through this cycle, surprisingly enough.

The dungeon before it that received similar focus and attention was the Gnolls out in the Sunset Mountains because - at the time - they were being run most regularly (sometimes in a single day that dungeon saw more traffic than all the other dungeons on the server combined). As mentioned, when the staff sees this kind of activity around a single dungeon we take a close look at it.

In the case of the gnolls, some -glaring- issues were found with the AI that drastically reduced the challenge of the dungeon. When that was fixed, Vince was better able to get an idea of the -real- challenge of the dungeon and found it to be lacking (it's supposed to be for level 19-22, if I recall, and a group of level 16ish characters (3 or 4) were regularly clearing the place in about 15 minutes without taking damage). Granted, myself and a few staff members comprised this group so there was less risk of exploiting or farming, but even so Vince rolled out changes quickly and in small doses because that's the easiest way to tell which fixes/changes work and which ones don't. Overhauling an entire dungeon in one fell swoop - making changes to spawns, stats on monsters, items dropped, boss mechanics, and even additional bosses almost guarantees you're going to have to roll something back or that you're going to create new issues. Adding all of that at once makes it much harder to narrow down where things go off the rails.

Naturally, the boss is the best place to start. It's a single creature. This is why Lady Wyvernspur has received more attention than the surrounding dungeon. She's simply the easiest 'problem' to fix.

Please always bear in mind we have -one- builder. Time is a thing and one man can only do so much work so quickly. Vince is amazing at what he does, but he still has a life outside the game that puts heavy demands on him. Things will get fixed in their entirety in time. Please be patient, and remember - if a dungeon isn't to your liking there are -lots- of others to take a look at.

For my part, if your character ever wants to go out and just see or find new dungeons Voss is always willing to show people around. I know most hate his guts for various reasons, but I'd relish such opportunities to show that there's a great deal more to the character than meets the eye.

I'm certain other characters are willing to do this as well. It just takes some asking around.

[valiea987]

New Wyvenspur is out. Going to be damn near impossible to do that with buffs without having a trap springer. I went a short trip in to the first staircase, and got hit by about 8 dispels, and then one of the mages was -inside- a dispel trap so you can't get to a dispelling mob without being dispelled by a dispel trap.

In other words, we need more trap springers!

[Vincent07]

The new Wyvernspur was not in at the time of that post.


It is in now.