Dungeons- Dispels/AC/etc

[The Red Mage]

I'll always be against the idea of making any dungeons weaker when almost half of the dungeons go unexplored due to level acceleration. If we are to balance dungeons around being buffless, then those who don't mind or even -insist- on having all the buffs will just run through the content at an easier pace than they already are.

I guess I'm an advocate for more hardcore rules and ways, but I don't believe dungeons on this server are at all difficult. Some of them are unfun and have a mock-difficulty, but the creatures themselves are often not difficult once you examine them.

I'd rather see players bleeding out after an encounter than groaning about the tedious task of spending a few more of their hundreds of scrolls to breeze through mountaining more gold they can't spend.

[tenorgeneral]

I wasn't suggesting to make them weaker, I was more saying it's a problem when a dungeon is either breeze easy or gets you dead to rights depending on your build and whether you take full advantage of a semi broken system (like scrolls being so light as to let a low strength PC cart around thousands of them, and having multiple containers that reduce space and weight constraints for consumables even more.  I mean, that'd be one way to remove the need for dispels and an assumption of full buffing right there, and it wouldn't even take anything away from PCs (giving weight back to scrolls and making scroll cases not reduce weight of items inside them).

[Nymera]

I'd be all for removing most of the spell scrolls from the game and actually going back to wizards scribing them and trading them.  It's kind of silly that a rogue with a tiny bit of UMD or a AA with a single wizard level can just buy stacks and stacks of high level buff scrolls.

[tenorgeneral]

I'd actually really be up for something like this, as it would make dungeons much easier to balance I would imagine.

[kingofaquilonia]

then I guess I have the wrong mindset, If I'm getting constantly hit in a dungeon I feel like a bitch. I don't wanna play a medieval fantasy RPG to feel like a bitch lol.

You shouldn't have to pretty much get through a dungeon via money aka spending massive amounts of gold on healing items. In no way does that feel epic or bad ass etc.

Let's keep in mind that EVEN WHEN you have enough AC that the mobs can only hit you on a 20 they still hit you CONSTANTLY. Like Arc with basic buffs(50AC) doing Witch Lords even with Stone skin up at the beginning I use the maul and I one to two shot each skeleton but I STILL am down to like 100 hp out of 250 HP by the time I reach the part where I'm about to go underwater.

[Masque]

I'm not sure it would make balance easier as you would -

A) Need to rebalance every dungeon around the new model something I am assuming we don't really have the resources to do even if it was considered desirable.

B) Pick which tier you want your dungeon to be capable of challenging the upper tier which would consist of those with innate spell casting ability and the lower tier which would include everyone else.

The reason stated for monsters to start throwing around dispels is to get rid of not the AC buff spells of a fighter but the immunity spells such as death ward and magic circle. I think the problem is never going to be the AC buffs because it is very simple to raise a monsters attack bonus. The real issue that is being run into here is the very binary nature of D&D's magic system. The all or nothing dilemma as it where.

If spells like Death Ward are a concern then potentially it is these spells that need to be changed.

It could potentially be changed to block X amount of spells with the death descriptor before it runs out and make the amount of spells it blocks dependant on caster level and you have just introduced an incentive and an advantage a natural caster would have over a scroll.

Or

Or have death ward and its ilk work as a % chance to block a spell with the death descriptor and as you increase in caster level that % likewise increases with you.

The problem with mass-dispelling is that the D&D system of encounters just simply isn't designed for it. You'll be hitting four encounters a day (it assumes) and if each of those encounters has a caster in it you may be dealing with four potential dispel situations and you can use appropriate non-real time tactics to counter them. In NWN (and CD's dungeons) you can encounter a creature with the capacity to dispel in every single encounter within a dungeon but instead of four you're dealing with 20+ of these.

That being said I don't find any of the encounter overtly difficult but then I have never attempted them with a pure fighter build. I just find the dispels a little bit annoying as they are often very frequent in some dungeons rather than an unusual or interesting tactic you need to counter occasionally.

[tenorgeneral]

Or alternatively design things that use thing that get around the massive number of immunities.  That's how I've always designed encounters for balance at higher level, and it works really well.  For example, no one is immune to petrification via spells that I know of, which is why I actually thematically like the stoning which occurs in Ogre Lords (much better than any amount of dispel spam), throw maze spells at people (again, really cool, not any immunities that I know of), or make the mages use more of their spells on buffing their fellow Ogres (ie give the Ogres GMW'd axes, stoneskin, etc and take the used number of spells out of the spell lists of the Mages).

I'd be completely willing to do such work to make the server more fun for everyone, and I suspect others would be too.

Oh also, spells like Lehel's Vicious Vertigo...  That would be so great to have NPCs throw, as it...  well actually makes the encounter way more difficult when you have to battle a changing camera angle to switch targets, etc.

[Masque]

There are certainly some affects like Maze and Petrification effects that work around immunities (i.e. no immunities exist) but how many encounters can you design that use Maze and Flesh to Stone to challenge people before it becomes a bit gimmicky?

I think the petrification chance works really well in the Ogres dungeon because it is used sparingly enough to not be cheesy (because everyone rolls a 1 eventually) and it is also easy to remedy and recover from with a prepared party. The same is likewise true for Maze it is a very good way of temporarily inconveniencing and disrupting a party but both allow the party to recover from it without major disruption to their run if they react appropriately.

There is sadly not many other examples of such spells in NWN. If you alter how out-right immunity spells work then you add a bit more tension to the use of other types of spells such as death and mind-affecting without the need for dispels wrecking the buffs that are considered appropriate and have acted as a decent gold sink.

[The Red Mage]

I would like if magic circle of alignment and deathward provided a % chance of blocking the spell. That sounds fun. In a game of dice RNG is always the best option. 4% per level or something?

[Not Batman]

Dec 24, 2013 16:15:30 GMT -5 kingofaquilonia said:

then I guess I have the wrong mindset, If I'm getting constantly hit in a dungeon I feel like a bitch. I don't wanna play a medieval fantasy RPG to feel like a bitch lol.

You shouldn't have to pretty much get through a dungeon via money aka spending massive amounts of gold on healing items. In no way does that feel epic or bad ass etc.

Let's keep in mind that EVEN WHEN you have enough AC that the mobs can only hit you on a 20 they still hit you CONSTANTLY. Like Arc with basic buffs(50AC) doing Witch Lords even with Stone skin up at the beginning I use the maul and I one to two shot each skeleton but I STILL am down to like 100 hp out of 250 HP by the time I reach the part where I'm about to go underwater.

Are you taking into account the mages that can spawn in there that don't care about your AC? There are massive amounts of enemies in there, eventually they will all get a 20. You're not "A bitch" if you take damage, that just means your character it -mortal-. Witchlords, in some areas, can still put the swing on the higher level characters. Hell, when the mages can drop six chain lightnings in the first area, that can put a smack on anyone.

[kingofaquilonia]

Nope I'm talking about pure damage from arrows and swords, Arc isn't high enough level that the mages spawn and even if they did that chain lightning spam wouldn't hurt him since he is half blue dragon.

I need to place a HUGE order of Imp invis scrolls with a mage cuz AC without concealment doesn't mean diddly.

And no you aren't a "Bitch" if you take damage but it makes the character feel weak if you are almost dieing when you know you are stronger than that.

I mean Arc is no slouch, he's sparred against epic leveled characters with both people being buffed and WON, but then dispels come around and unnfffff.


Anyhow like I said I don't really have much of a solution, I'm just putting it out there for the people that might have an idea to toss the idea out.

[Edge]

Dec 24, 2013 16:15:30 GMT -5 kingofaquilonia said:

then I guess I have the wrong mindset, If I'm getting constantly hit in a dungeon I feel like a bitch. I don't wanna play a medieval fantasy RPG to feel like a bitch lol.

If that's how you really feel then D&D probably isn't the game for you, or at the very least not without massive house ruling (Armor As DR might be an alternate ruleset that appeals to you, for example). Because the game is designed around the idea that even an encounter with a CR equal to your level - a "basic", relatively-easy encounter - is still supposed to burn 25% of your daily resources: HP, spell slots, per-day abilities, and such like. Anything that goes far enough below that to demand a minute or ignorable percentage of your resources is not supposed to give XP because it's too easy an encounter.

An actually challenging encounter - say, CR party level +2 - should burn 50% of those resources. An epic encounter - CR party level +4 - should burn 75%, and is assumed to be used for climactic encounters like boss battles and other major plot fights.

HP is the most fluid, cheapest, and most easily restored of those resources. Most of the others either can't be restored at all without rest, or can only be restored in minute amounts with extremely expensive magic (such as Pearls of Power for spell slots).

So yes, D&D does assume that, even at the highest levels, the party Fighter-type(s) will be taking a great deal of HP damage in even the most basic, run-of-the-mill combats that are high enough level to be worth XP to them, in your words "like a bitch". And that the party will spend 25% of their resources in dealing with that - either that fraction of their spells or magic items on-hand to heal you back to full, or simply leaving you with those HPs lost until you get low enough to actually be in danger of dying.

[kingofaquilonia]

In D&D perhaps yes, but trying to play NWN like its D&D doesn't work. At least not with the dungeons in the module... I could see this happening in a DM run event but not the usual dungeons.

I've been playing D&D since 3rd grade (Back then it was first Edition with my dad where elf was a class). D&D is definitely my thing... but I don't treat NWN as D&D because it just will never be that.

[tenorgeneral]

I feel I should also point out that if we're going by anything approaching "you should burn 25% of your daily stuff per CR equivalent encounter,"  then we should go to a turn based combat system where the dice are not weighted for NPCs to roll 20s, and where concealment is not hugely more beneficial than improved AC.  Oh, and every CR appropriate encounter should then force you to burn about 100 scrolls.

Or we could rebalance the biggest thing causing an issue (which would likely help with lag too), and add weight back to scrolls, then limit the types and maybe number you can purchase (meaning say scrolls of 1 through third circle might be available in shops, at a low CL, but that's it).

[Vincent07]

You are going to get hit.  That's just how it works.
No matter how high your AC, no matter how well you manage to keep 50% concealment up (good luck with that), something in melee is going to hit you.  This is not a skill based game where that can be dodged/avoided/etc.  The engine will roll a 20 and you will take damage.

Now, this works both ways.  You also get to hit whatever you want on a 20.  So even that Mage with horrid AB, can still get a hit on that Dragon on a good roll.  The 'dice' are not weighted one way or another, the system is just generating numbers.  But this is where your supplies come into play.  See, the system is actually weighted in your favor, as most of you have a bag or six stuffed full of healing supplies.  Or have someone with you who does.  Do you know how hard it is to kill a decently high AC fighter with solid HP when a Cleric is standing there healkiting him?  (Hint: You have to kill the Cleric)  I may have made the AI smarter, but compared to players, it is still deeply stupid.  Am I saying abuse it?  NO.   I'm saying play smart.


Side note on spells/immunities etc.   The Spell Mantle function actually allows for Spell School specific Mantle effects.  ie: I can set an effect that stops X levels of Necromancy spells and lasts long enough that you either have to Breach it off or blow through it.  Similarly, I can easily alter things like Protection vs Magic to be more like Stoneskin, where they can be torn down by damage, rather than constant immunity until duration ends or dispelled.  I may very well make both of these changes in some instances, which I think would make for an environment where dispel was much less necessary.  Again, this is mostly for the scroll stackers.  Any mage worth their salt can usually resist a dispel attempt.  Especially as I have yet to put in any NPCs using the Shadow Weave.  *cough*