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You can probably add my Thayan Knight character to list (Danax Kallos, Fighter7), but he'll probably be the lowest level and a pure fighter, so maybe not much use.  I can fill a spot on a team if that's all you need to compete though.

Oct 20, 2014 16:08:05 GMT -5  @belladonna said:

Fine.  Ban HiPS.  But then also ban healing potions/kits, cure spells, knockdown (as already mentioned), any auto-hit spells (IGMS), all displacement spells, all summon spells, etc etc etc.  Because each of these requires limited methods to counter/avoid them.  Fair is fair, after all.

/sarcasm

Seriously, guys, where do you draw the line?

No one said to ban it, but being aware of how it operates mechanically is important if you want to make an informed decision on it either way.  My point was that you better make flurry2 and flurry3 of that first round count because you could be in trouble afterwards.

Banning it because you heard it was bad is certainly not the answer (which is/was done in countless places), nor is allowing a free for all (CD took the middle ground with the skill mods on quick use; which, from a scripting sense, is the best work-around to the hard coded nature of the ability).


In the end it's all Dom's decision on how it goes.

Oct 20, 2014 15:41:58 GMT -5 trylobyte said:

Oct 20, 2014 15:37:56 GMT -5 Garage Trashcan said:

There's also scripts in play that give you a massive Hide penalty if you hide within 1-2 rounds (can't remember) after coming out of stealth, so abusing it is much more difficult.

In that case my objection to HiPS is withdrawn.  I wasn't sure if that was on CD or not.  Carry on!

However, it is still only checking once per round, large negative or not.

Hide with HiPS.
Move in. Listen/spot check fails, player is hidden.
Swing first flurry.
HiPS.
Move in.  No check for the rest of the round/other two flurries.

By round 2 you'll probably be hooped as you'll fail the next check.  

Oct 20, 2014 14:24:26 GMT -5 dom101 said:

Oct 20, 2014 14:16:21 GMT -5 The Nameless Bard said:

I know this may blow you away, but my post was not malicious in any way whatsoever.  Sorry for posting something I've seen work in the past.  Nothing you said even remotely applies to what I said either.  Their method was simply to add a bit more flavour into PvP situations (they are still mechanical PvP battles), which clearly you're not interested in, which is also fine.  Personally, if I can steal from somewhere that has done something with success in the past, then I'll do it.  

There are so many others ways you can talk to your fellow players rather than that kind of aggressive tone. How about:

"Hey man, thanks for the suggestion, but I'm looking to go a different direction."

A response like that, rather than a passive aggressive one goes a lot further to promoting cooperation with your fellow posters than slamming on me for no apparent reason.  

I actually wasn't referring to your post, that's why nothing I said remotely applied to what you said.

Then I apologize to jumping to a conclusions as I didn't see anyone else discussing anything similar in between that post and your last one so I thought you were referring to mine.

Oct 20, 2014 13:56:05 GMT -5 dom101 said:

Better yet why don't we just make it a popularity contest; two characters enter, then the audience votes and the loser gets laughed at on the forums whilst the winner gets the Dubya.

I mean, clearly there's no reason to rely on mechanics that way, right?  So even a level 3 has a chance to beat a level 28.  It makes the most canonical sense, right?

/sarcasm

I know this may blow you away, but my post was not malicious in any way whatsoever.  Sorry for posting something I've seen work in the past.  Nothing you said even remotely applies to what I said either.  Their method was simply to add a bit more flavour into PvP situations (they are still mechanical PvP battles), which clearly you're not interested in, which is also fine.  Personally, if I can steal from somewhere that has done something with success in the past, then I'll do it.  

There are so many others ways you can talk to your fellow players rather than that kind of aggressive tone. How about:

"Hey man, thanks for the suggestion, but I'm looking to go a different direction."

A response like that, rather than a passive aggressive one goes a lot further to promoting cooperation with your fellow posters than slamming on me for no apparent reason.  

[Don't spam HIPS.]

Oct 20, 2014 11:39:34 GMT -5  @belladonna said:

Oct 19, 2014 23:19:33 GMT -5 trylobyte said:

One thing I'd propose, if these are to be mechanical fights, would be a limit or ban on certain well-known types of cheese.  House rules, if you will, in the interests of making the fights more fighty and less 'who presses the win button first.'  Some proposed guidelines (which I know shaft rogues a bit):

Don't spam HIPS.  It's nigh-impossible to counter if the rogue is well-geared and has good timing, and very boring to watch and fight against.  Also prone to dragging out matches.
Don't spam Knockdown.  Once a round is probably fine, but making every single attack a Knockdown is probably overdoing it.
One Bigby hand per fight.  They're powerful spells with no save and at least two cannot be warded against.  Don't want the game becoming a Bigbyfest.
No Timestop. One successful Timestop means that a good mage will disable the entire enemy team.
No Word of Faith.  It's an AoE Blind with no save that's the size of the entire arena.  A cleric opening with this has no excuse for losing.
No Reverse Gravity.  It's a good-sized AoE save-or-no-fighting-for-you spell that doesn't do much damage and it takes forever waiting for those affected to actually land.
No Darkness.  It deprives the spectators of a good show if none of them can see anything.  Even with Ultravision the fights would be hard to follow.
No summons beyond your level.  Otherwise every mage and cleric will just pop a Gate scroll.  'No summons' might be a possible rule, if constraining.


Then we'd have occasional 'No Rules' matches where we just ignore all of these.

No.  No.  No.

Rather than all this, just ban scrolls and wands/rods/items with spells.

I am so tired of people calling HiPS and Knockdown cheesy, instead of being legitimate tactics.

Well, that depends.  HiPS is bad is you're doing it multiple times per round since spot/listen checks are only rolled once per round.  I'm not sure there are enough Spot/Listen items to match the Hide/MS items though, so it probably doesn't matter.


I've seen this style of match run extremely well in the past.  I'll show you what they used:

CHALLENGES
Fights are started by one fighter challenging another. Standard terms are assumed unless the fighters agree on something else.


STANDARD CHALLENGE TERMS
- Three magics only (or potions, wand charge, item spell etc)
- Magics cast on yourself only; buff/weapon/defense/healing/dmg shields etc
- No summons (or familiars, animal companions)
- No 9th circle spells (mostly for Shapechange)
- Player can use one RP Pause per match, use it wisely and strategically (see below)
- Fight til RP Yield or Death (Fray does provide raising)

Special considerations that count as one spell

- Bards. Bard Song
- Monks. Empty Body and Wholeness of Body
- Shifters. Shape change


BEGINNING FIGHTS
- Fights being with Darkness spell cast from a scroll (3 rounds)
- Spend the darkness time preparing, hiding, casting spells etc. (keeps people guessing)
- Fight begins once the darkness lifts
- Don't forget to hostile your opponent


ENDING FIGHTS
- Death is not usually the desired outcome (death if often RP'd as KO)
- If a character is Near Death and withdrawing let them go
- RP Yields should be respected (see below in Roleplaying Fights)


ROLEPLAYING FIGHTS
Easier said than done in most cases, but RP is encouraged before, after, and during fights. Keep things interesting. Use talk binds and voice emotes. If you're locked in a hack and slash, emote or talk smack; its meant to be a seedy affair. Part of the purpose of The Fray is to see if its possible to inject RP into and around PvP situations, and still keep things fun and flowing. We're going to experiment with using binds to help facilitate some RP. Help us figure it how best to do it!

Bind: "// OOC:Yield!"
Indicates submission, yielder forfeits match. Both combatants must cease attacks immediately. Yielder then must RP appropriately allowing victor his due. Hits may still land unintentionally after message so it may not always work out.

ex. *grunts dropping to one knee after the last mighty blow drove him down* Enough! I yield... this fight is yours.


Alternately combatants can agree to only fight to a particular wounded level (i.e. Badly Wounded or Near Death) prior to match, with loser emoting defeat.


Bind: "// OOC:RP Pause!"
Each combatant gets one RP Pause during match, to be used at discretion. Are meant to be used strategically. Once signaled, opponents must cease attack and back off to allow for RP message before fighting commences.

ex. *absorbs the impact of the strike rolling some distance away, smirks and rises dusting himself off* Good hit. I expect you think you have this in the bag. I beg to differ. *quickly quaffs his last potion*

ex. *sidesteps and ends up nearby breathing heavy* That all you got? Better say your prayers Orc. You're about to meet your god. *bull rushes back in*


Pauser initiates combat again by using spell/potion/item (at which point opponent may attack), or by emoting hostilities (must emote before clicking to attack to give opponent chance to ready as well).



DIRTY TRICKS
Dirty tricks can and should be used. These may or may not be noticed by Fray Overseers, or the gathered crowd and will be RP'd as seen fit. Could be overlooked, result in match forfeit, or even provoke hostility, be prepared. Typically if you see someone "cheating" and it could logically be hidden send them a tell and ask for opposing roll so others are not necessarily alerted.



SPICING THINGS UP
Fray Overseers may at any time intervene as they see fit to keep things entertaining. This may mean lobbing in a Choking Powder or Black Rock [dispel item], or simply calling for a break in the action for the fighters to catch their breaths and adjust strategy.

I'm thinking that Space Marines from Games Workshop* Hellknights from the Pathfinder world would be a good place to draw from for Knights.  Certainly, the ranks.

It would also give my character something to do other than follow around fokes in red robes.  Each of the Order would be a good theme for the character although some are better than others.




* - Lawsuit for misuse of trademarked term is pending.

There doesn't appear to be a lot of lore of Thayan Knights in any source books.  Maybe in novels?

At any rate, I think I am going to steal from somewhere else and get something written down.

Oct 17, 2014 8:39:47 GMT -5 Ogre Time Yay said:

Might have to back Hydaro out of this, it doesn't look like there are enough players that are a part of the White Cloak thing that would be willing to do the arena thing as it would fall outside of many of the current members character personalities (from what it seems like so far, at least).

While I as a player think it's a super cool idea, Lissa would never do something so barbaric!  

I've made a character today, Danax Kallos who is built as a Thayan Knight.  

I have to play it for a bit to see if the character will stick or not though.

I used to be all for mechanical PvP.  I played a Talosian cleric.  She did not have many friends.

I later found out that some of the people were older and not very quick when it came to reaction time.  Others have anxiety issues when it comes to PvP.

Both of these thing has led me to believe that text based combat (I don't like the dice rolls style) are far superior to mechanical PvP.  (basically, I don't want physical  or mental limitations to limit someone's RP)

Did I completely stop mechanical PvP?  Nope, but it was never my decision; I always let the other person(s) decide.  

One of my most memorable PvP situations was when we discussed it ahead of time that we would have a magic duel.  One spell after another.  First spell: Flesh to Stone.  Result?  Stone.  My character was then taken to the council chambers of the central elven community.  As I said, she didn't have many friends and stayed there for one or two years in real life time.   The spell did wear off, but it seemed cooler to pretend that it didn't.

We're all here to tell stories, so in my opinion, lets find out who can tell the best story as a result of a win or loss and go with it.

Super awesome (obligatory: sauce) post.  I'd rather just RP the fight entirely and decide before hand who is going to win.  Honestly, mechanically PvP? Yawn.  Wake me up when you kill me.

Anyone can feel free to contact me and say "I want to do this with my character but I don't know how!" and I'll see if I can put my character(s) in a situation to help that out.  It really is most rewarding form of RP in my opinion.  You will then owe me a favour!  A gnomish favour*!

P.S. I will be needing someone who would be willing to do something mean (and messy) to one of my characters. Inquire within. (seriously)


* in no event will said gnomish favours be liable to said gnome; this shall include (but not limited to) hair loss, memory loss, body part loss, taste bud loss, profit loss, pie loss.

If it's not someone that I would send a tell to and say "someone is watching you!" then I probably don't want to RP with them in the first place, so, I guess, just as FW has said.


I like the change.  I'm not sure if it persisting over restarts is the best idea as people may 'set it and forget it', but I guess we'll see in a week if everyone is on hidden.

[Just because you can doesn't mean you should]

There are some seriously aggressive posts here.  Maybe take a break and relax before posting.  They don't really help anyone.

I wasn't there, but there has been some good advice given for all events:

• Just because you can doesn't mean you should.  Events have a lot of moving parts and dominating the entire thing, while may be IC for your character, means you're OOCly ignoring the golden rule of the server.  Let others players shine too.  This is also about dialing back on your aggressive PCs if you want to be involved with other people outside of your IC friends.  
• Events are supposed to be fun.  PvP is generally not fun (well maybe for the winning player), so try to consider other people in these DM events (specifically the DM).  Not everyone can roll Player v player combat into the middle of an event.  Consider that the DM is taking time out of their day to run something (that should be) fun for your character.
  
• Don't make assumptions.  If someone engaged in PvP with out asking the DM, I'd get them out of the event fairly quick regardless if another player complained or not (unless I really knew everyone involved pretty well).  It's not a surprise that it derailed the event. 
• Just for event XP.  I would wager that people like the fun of the even over event XP.  Seems to be a rather jarring comment.
• Listen to the DM.  Don't take it personally.  

Maybe I'm too out of touch with the way NWN works these days, but this seems like basic common sense that we used to operate on.  

This is Lissa's song.  



Guess what's going to be stuck in my head for a long time...