Playing Evil Characters & Factions

[Edge]

One quick correction: Necromancy =/= Evil, and the magic stores everywhere would know that. Let's stop spreading that stereotype.

Carry on.

[Deleted]

Just as a reminder, there's absolutely nothing against PvP on the server.  But if you PvP in a city, expect consequences.  (Yes, that includes the Undercity which is Neutral-leaning-evil.  Just don't do it in front of the guards and you're fine.)  Unfortunately, you can't limit items bought by "evil," only by overall type.  Only way to mimic this would be to mark all evil items as stolen.

As a player with evil characters, I only have one that would go to the Underdark at all.  Hence my lack of interest.

[Edge]

Mar 14, 2017 20:12:30 GMT -5  @belladonna said:

As a player with evil characters, I only have one that would go to the Underdark at all.  Hence my lack of interest.

And that really is the core of the problem with the "Evil Server Center" of CD being an Underdark city - just because you're evil doesn't mean you want to go down there. The Underdark is a bad, bad place, and just because your sheet has an E on it doesn't mean you're going to be necessarily comfortable and/or welcomed down there. There is a very specific subset of evil that can thrive in the Underdark, and not everyone playing evil fits into, or wants to fit into, that limitation.

Back before the Banite takeover, Stonehaven was the sort of place that was better for this kind of thing, but unfortunately marred by stigmas associated with certain players. Once the Banite plot is over, it might be able to be that sort of place again, depending.

Just here, putting my two cents:

1.)  I played on various Rp servers on Ultima Online and it was done with incredible ease, and the general rule was, "It happened, it goes."  And the rules were hardcore.  Now, I dislike the server due to OOC Drama, that other people made for me, regardless of any actual facts, stupid really.  But, the evil core?  They communicated with the good side, they made sure the drama was cut down, did everyone do this?  No.  Were there moments where favours and, could you please, not do this?  Yes, and we did those things, was I granted mercy?  Yes, and no.  Were there moments where a word or two would've helped?  Yep, and they were given, and there were altogether bad examples.  But, the point is, This is truly important. Communicate!

2.)  If there are moments where you are scared, and get nervous OOC, take a step back, and realize it should be fun for you, as much as it is for them.  This blends with the first point, but don't feel bad about stepping back.  Letting me or anyone know it's not cool, whatever is happening, can stop for a quick chat.  (see what I said about first?)  On this server, we did that, and other times, we set who was involved in at first to limit drama, and every so often outside players got involved adding more fun.  In the horrible situations, you are put into a terrible situation and you have to roll with the punches, it's just a silly game, and yes your character got evisercated, but you'll be remembered well, maybe get a gravestone.  A eulogy, or a funeral, players remembering your character, maybe a revenge plot?  There's moments where the results can be opportunities too.

3.)  Bottom line for me was...  It was cool.  And it made a wide expansive world, scary.  And while that's not everyone's cup of tea.  It may be for some, and you can step back and move on if that's your fancy.  Or you can totally get involved.  For me, the mysterious and dreadful, made more secrets to find, or to avoid.  Making choices, conversations, quirks, weaknesses, and talents, more viable when facing evil, or realizing the evil in characters we did not know existed before.  

All of these things inevitably add and take away from an Rp server.  You all can pick and choose what is what.  It should be pretty clear though.

love ya guys

[trylobyte]

Mar 14, 2017 20:07:49 GMT -5 Mystic Warden said:

A second sandbox for evil characters could be a good start. Even if not a final or best solution, at least it would give some possibilities for evil PCs to be evil. Because right now we have practically nothing, that initiated this whole discussion.

We could make the Undercity and the Underdark area a kinda "hardcore" difficulty, with PvP allowed, with proper OOC warnings in the game, too. Go there on your own peril, if somebody does not like it, no problem, he can stick to the surface areas and Arabel. Of course that means that the Underdark areas should be enlarged to give enough room to play for the evil characters. And/or some ways for those evil PC groups to reach some of the existing dungeons for raids, like teleports or some extra cave exits/entrances to facilitate easier travel.

To further emphasize the difference between the surface and the Underdark, some changes in the shops could be done, too. Like removing all evil and necromancy related items, scrolls, etc. from the shops in Arabel and in the other cities. Liesel could also refuse to buy such items, while the Kelemvorite temple would buy them for a nominal fee to destroy them (it would be possible to sell those items there, but it would just vaporize, like items thrown into a trash can, not appearing as buyable in the shop at all). On the other hand, the pawn shop in the Underdark would not have such restriction and would pay full price. What's more, the shops down there could outright offer evil items for sale, contrary to the shops on the surface.

As a resident non-PvP guy, paranoid wreck, and also one of the server's bigger rules lawyers, I can say that making any area a free PvP 'hardcore' zone is going to push people away and result in problems.  Remember that this is an epic server and the playing field is certainly not level.  While I'm not saying the players would do it I can point out that it'd be perfectly IC for characters like Elf, Aelie, Elzevir, or Kimbell to simply go down there and annihilate any evil PC that's offended them lately and they can do it so quickly and so thoroughly that they will never be caught.  You probably won't even ICly know it was them, so you can't even retaliate without metagaming, which is precisely why those characters would operate like that.  This is, from past experience, asking for trouble, especially since Shindig is also a starting city.

Remember that the good guys and antiheroes have a decade-long headstart and there are very few evil characters who could stand up to them one on one let alone in a group.  This makes open PvP a generally bad idea.  I know most of you guys and generally trust you, but I've seen this sort of thing far too many times to ever trust it.  PvP is competitive and competition brings out the worst in people.  Seen too many cases where rules were forgotten, ignored, or 'creatively reinterpreted' to let people get away with scumbag maneuvers and seen just as many instances where flagrant violations weren't punished because the people responsible for punishing it didn't have the power, will, time, or evidence to punish it.  So yeah, color me skeptical, and I will avoid any open PvP area like it was radioactive and I'm highly wary of any sort of PvP in general.  It's just not fun for me.

[Not Batman]

Mar 14, 2017 20:12:30 GMT -5  @belladonna said:

Just as a reminder, there's absolutely nothing against PvP on the server.

I have to respectfully disagree completely. My first DM application was denied purely because I engaged in PVP (I was attacked in a way that violated the rules, yet I got thrown under the bus). I've been told not to run certain events purely because they -might- encourage PVP. I have been told NOT to run events that require consent and sign up because they had PVP elements. PVP is a very touchy subject on NWN as a whole.

Mar 14, 2017 23:28:10 GMT -4 trylobyte said:
Remember that this is an epic server and the playing field is certainly not level.  While I'm not saying the players would do it I can point out that it'd be perfectly IC for characters like Elf, Aelie, Elzevir, or Kimbell to simply go down there and annihilate any evil PC that's offended them lately and they can do it so quickly and so thoroughly that they will never be caught.  You probably won't even ICly know it was them, so you can't even retaliate without metagaming, which is precisely why those characters would operate like that.  This is, from past experience, asking for trouble, especially since Shindig is also a starting city.

Remember that the good guys and antiheroes have a decade-long headstart and there are very few evil characters who could stand up to them one on one let alone in a group.  This makes open PvP a generally bad idea.  I know most of you guys and generally trust you, but I've seen this sort of thing far too many times to ever trust it.  PvP is competitive and competition brings out the worst in people.

Servers like POTM, Sinfar and few others I could name all have some form of areas or rules where open PVP is permitted. POTM sees TONS about monster or Dark Power 5 characters who gain immunity to PVP rules, and a lot of the time start chain killing low level characters with their level 15 werewolf, or whatever or just a player in an open PVP area. I agree completely with Trylo that open PVP at ALL is a terrible idea, regardless of how limited a form. With places like Sinfar that have entire areas with open PVP, there is inevitably the one person who just camps in there and attacks everyone they see, which results in sore feelings when someone is just trying to move through the area to either visit a dungeon, shop, what-have-you.

[Mystic Warden]

Mar 14, 2017 22:28:10 GMT -5 trylobyte said:

As a resident non-PvP guy, paranoid wreck, and also one of the server's bigger rules lawyers, I can say that making any area a free PvP 'hardcore' zone is going to push people away and result in problems.  Remember that this is an epic server and the playing field is certainly not level.  While I'm not saying the players would do it I can point out that it'd be perfectly IC for characters like Elf, Aelie, Elzevir, or Kimbell to simply go down there and annihilate any evil PC that's offended them lately and they can do it so quickly and so thoroughly that they will never be caught.  You probably won't even ICly know it was them, so you can't even retaliate without metagaming, which is precisely why those characters would operate like that.  This is, from past experience, asking for trouble, especially since Shindig is also a starting city.

Remember that the good guys and antiheroes have a decade-long headstart and there are very few evil characters who could stand up to them one on one let alone in a group.  This makes open PvP a generally bad idea.  I know most of you guys and generally trust you, but I've seen this sort of thing far too many times to ever trust it.  PvP is competitive and competition brings out the worst in people.  Seen too many cases where rules were forgotten, ignored, or 'creatively reinterpreted' to let people get away with scumbag maneuvers and seen just as many instances where flagrant violations weren't punished because the people responsible for punishing it didn't have the power, will, time, or evidence to punish it.  So yeah, color me skeptical, and I will avoid any open PvP area like it was radioactive and I'm highly wary of any sort of PvP in general.  It's just not fun for me.

A real den of evil would have its own epic level characters, able to match the power of the above mentioned PCs and making such a "simply go there and annihilate" attempts futile or very questionable at best. (Especially considering potential collateral damage of innocents which should restrain good characters somewhat from taking such reckless action.) First those would be NPCs but in time, PCs could take over those positions. Providing such NPCs is one example of the DM support the idea needs if we want to go through with it. If we want a little garden of evil, it needs some help to grow at the start.

[Edge]

The trick would be finding a DM willing and interested to do so who the evil PC players would trust to do the job.

More importantly, we have made a policy in the past of not providing powerful NPCs like that, one i am very loathe to consider breaking. The instant we give evil PCs powerful NPC protectors to fight on their behalf, we have to explain why they get that but we denied a paladin's request for a legion of church knights to raze Darkhold with. (Yes this is a serious request we once got.)

[trylobyte]

Mar 15, 2017 13:18:59 GMT -5 Edge said:

The trick would be finding a DM willing and interested to do so who the evil PC players would trust to do the job.

More importantly, we have made a policy in the past of not providing powerful NPCs like that, one i am very loathe to consider breaking. The instant we give evil PCs powerful NPC protectors to fight on their behalf, we have to explain why they get that but we denied a paladin's request for a legion of church knights to raze Darkhold with. (Yes this is a serious request we once got.)

You also give powerful Good PCs targets to go after.  You'd have to make them extremely powerful indeed, or give them Plot Armor +5, to make epic PCs not consider ways to screw with them.

[Edge]

Yep. CDs loot especially is not designed with pvp in mind. Each of those NPC protectors would need to be like Lady Wyvernspur or Hogger or Yolanda in power and design to even last a few moments against epic good PCs. It would not at all be like making an NPC version of a high level PC.

[trylobyte]

Another thing.  With NPC guardians you'll also run into the 'City Guard problem' a lot.  The City Guard problem states that so long as DMs are either not online or all busy, players are free to ignore the city guards because they know the guards need a DM to possess them in order to enforce any laws.  This can be very taxing on a DM's time if they need to keep someone always on call to deal with potential problems since they need to react to the players instead of the players reacting to them.  And there are a lot more players than DMs.

[Edge]

Oooooooooh yes. This is already something we have a HUGE problem with right now. Definitely do not need anything further to exacerbate it more.

[Fire Wraith]

Generally I think we want to avoid encouraging open/random PVP. We want character conflict to be about stories, and mean something, not just random engine-based squishing. This goes for good aligned PCs as well as evil, regardless of who's using it as an excuse to go after the others. I would much rather see people scheme and plot and such, punctuated by the occasional killing as appropriate.

I think overall the best route to playing evil, or good, is to focus on achieveable goals, going after NPC targets, rather than feeling like you have to mercilessly take out your fellow PCs in order to prove how good/evil you are.

I do think that NPC factions should have appropriate heft to them, just not in ways that players can use. There's a difference between how defended the Underdark is against attack, and those NPCs being given to a player's command, just as there's a difference between having lots of good-aligned NPCs in Cormyr who would fight back if someone invaded, and letting some PC take command of them to go attack a place like Darkhold.

And for that matter, the Underdark does have guards, who are supposed to provide that sort of protection (generally). Paladins and their ilk aren't supposed to be running around openly there, much as evil types aren't supposed to run around openly in Arabel.

[Fire Wraith]

What I would overall suggest is to get a faction going - one that is general enough that it can encompass many types of self-interested evil characters, not just hyper-focused on one evil deity/etc. Lolthist Drow are fun, for instance, but a faction like that largely requires play of those Drow who worship Lolth. We could probably come up with something better that, as an organization, doesn't care about the rivalries and all (and perhaps encourages some within/among its members, on the side), as long as the goal remains focused. (Money? Power? something like that?)

[Darvins]

Mar 15, 2017 17:47:16 GMT -5 Edge said:

Yep. CDs loot especially is not designed with pvp in mind. Each of those NPC protectors would need to be like Lady Wyvernspur or Hogger or Yolanda in power and design to even last a few moments against epic good PCs. It would not at all be like making an NPC version of a high level PC.

Which then runs into the problem of 'Why are these super powerful evil guys protecting the weak and puny evil pc's instead of ya know.... ruling with an Iron Fist, Evil Town'