Playing Evil Characters & Factions

[Mystic Warden]

I think it is a great idea but what is really needed to make it happen is DM support. Playing evil against other PCs is very hard, due to the OOC courtesy that we should not ruin other players' fun -and evil is about making life not fun for others. The most typical way evil PCs can be really evil is against NPCs -henceforth, DM support is a must to give proper targets for the evilness.

Thought #2: if we have a haphazard bunch of evils they ought to get evil with each other, too. Probably duking out with each other to determine the rank in hierarchy will happen at the beginning and from time to time. I think the players involved should accept that PvP, even permadeath might be the result of joining the baddy club so make it at your own risk and do not get too attached to those characters.

Thought #3: if we are accepting that the lifespan of our evils might be limited due to internal conflicts, we can expand on this concept and the group (or certain members of it) might actively put forth evil agendas which will naturally involve a counter-action from the good (and some neutral) PCs. How awesome would it be when the adventurers in Arabel got a hint about some evil cultists trying to summon a demon or some ancient evil, hurry to the location -and instead of some general NPC enemies they find some very familiar faces ready to stop them from interfering. All the surprise, the emotions and the events happening and unfolding would give an enormous amount of material for RP for everybody involved!

[Arya]

Some ideas of my own.

#1. Not all evils are super PvP prone. There are antihero sort of evils or even conflicted hero sorts (though borders on antihero there). Mind, these may come with a few 'neutral' leanings, but still a valid concept for evil. Mind, I do admit villainous was mentioned here, and that is definitely the important part of the discussion.

#2. Hope to hear from JamesDude soon about this! I think he generally puts a lot of thought into these things before making a post. He might have a lot of nice ideas already to start.

Sincerely,
Arya

[trylobyte]

I have a drow bard who is evil!  But I also have some things to consider for the group.

1)  PvP.  Bear in mind that some people don't like PvP on an OOC level - It's a very controversial subject.  It was summed up best by a friend of mine from Ultima Online - PvP is guaranteed to cause conflict but that conflict is not guaranteed to stay in-character.  I've seen threats of PvP completely destroy quests in progress and cause DMs no end of headaches in the past, and I'd hate to see any project or idea die on the vine because PvP gets involved.  PvP also has a way of taking a lot of the fun out of running an evil scheme - It's no fun to be foiled by someone 10 levels higher than you right-clicking on you then left-clicking the sword icon, just like it's no fun to not be able to counter the evil scheme because they'll do the same to you.  I happen to be one of those people who dislikes PvP, so if it becomes expected or even allowed I'm probably out.

2)  It's tough to form a singular evil group with a diverse cast.  Simply put, evil doesn't get along well.  Good guys can always rally behind doing good deeds and helping people, but evil is more complicated and more goal-driven - A pirate who wants to loot and plunder a village, a corrupt nobleman kidnapping people and selling them into slavery, and an assassin for hire are all evil, but they don't have any reason to interact with each other and even if they did, no reason to work together.  Many times evil actively works against other evil - If two groups do have the same goal they're probably enemies because they both want the same thing and they're not the types to share.  If you do want to make an evil group then you need a reason for them to cooperate.  In the past this was generally done by making a group of evil PCs that have some existing reason to work together (a group of Red Wizards for instance) but this hasn't tended to last.  People leave or make new characters and then it just falls apart.

[Arya]

The problems are the ones already noted. Either the character has no group to do evil with and eventually has to develop non-evil to be involved, or... They have a group to mingle with but it is hard to get a bunch of evils to confide anything to each other since they are their own worst enemies. A mercenary/contract group from the OP is a nice start, mind, and blackmail is still on the table. ;-) For better or worse, -mild- but productive and non-harmful metagaming where people are talking to each other on the need-to-know OOCly in advance is probably okay, too (note disparity between competitive/harmful metagaming and "lets-talk/ask-in-tells-to-meet-and-RP-together" metagaming; like this thread). So, I am happy that we have so many interested in this! It feels like it can actually work for a while.

The evil activity comes and goes, really. Sometimes, the entire server is evil or neutral. Other times, less so.

In the past, I played evil for almost a year actively (an antihero/conflicted hero evil) but said character ended up developing away from it due to having more goodly connections and events that eventually changed that. I have consciously kept my existing evil character I mentioned away from those scenarios at this point...so I do not have a repeat or a bleed into the same sort of character concept. That, and I see nothing that would pull that person toward that direction anyway, with the way they developed.

Redemption stories are good and I have a very soft spot for them and encourage them, but with a character that would never, ever go there at all, there is no roleplay with this current cycle for him/her to keep playing them. I would like the environment to start playing them more. :-)

Sincerely,
Arya

[Not Batman]

I've tried and tried and tried to go evil PC stuff on CD and every time it gets shut down, typically from me literally being told "don't do this". The problem is PVP, inevitably there will be PVP, inevitably there will be some metagaming, for christ's sake, I've had OOC punishments dolled out on me because of simply ENGAGING in PVP before (Honestly, it was more forced upon me, but the fact remains I have been KICKED FOR SIMPLY BEING IN PVP). The ultimate problem that I had was that anytime I'd ever attempt anything evil, people take any form of IC drama or conflict as an OOC attack on them. I have had to engage in 30 minute long discussions, constantly repeating myself over and over that "IT IS IN CHARACTER ONLY" when my character even so much as calls someone an asshat.

Sadly, the most successful (really stretching the use of that word here) evil characters (Bass, Voss, Mouse) they all tried to be evil and got everyone to hate them, but it also resulted in some of the biggest OOC storms I've seen on CD, partly because enforcement is not a thing. I can see how some people will be really slow to embrace, or ever even attempt to embrace the possibility of evil PCs purely because of how badly it has been done in the past. So really, I've tried time and time again, but the simple IDEA that there might be IC drama/conflict has generally had people tell me to step away from trying anything "evil".

Just my own experiences here.

[ladybug]

The problem is really that effective evil is not really visible evil. So to truly play evil successfully, it has to be relatively unknown ICly with the primary problem being metagamey jerks who OOCly know about an evil or morally grey faction trying to sink it because "lol evil who cares." And yes, unfortunately, a lot of the known evil characters have been problematic.

This can work if the players are smart, and if they can count on all involved members working to make the group succeed.

[Not Batman]

Not every evil is going to be a "behind the scenes" guy. To every Red Skull (non-visible evil) there is a Sabretooth (Visible evil) or a Magneto (Visibile Anti-hero) who -wants- to be seen, heard and get their hands dirty. We cannot just say "Well, if you go evil, this is the path we want to see", it needs to be open to all forms.

[carp6]

See this is where i think the Underdark can come in for those who want to be open evil...it should be utilized more....

[Not Batman]

Mar 14, 2017 18:13:33 GMT -5 carp6 said:

See this is where i think the Underdark can come in for those who want to be open evil...it should be utilized more....

This just creates a secondary sand box that is exclusive to evil PCs. You can't hide it away and expect it to be effective, it has to be mingling and embraced by the whole. If all the evil (or even just a majority or portion of it) is confined to the Underdark, what difference does it truly offer?

[ladybug]

Mar 14, 2017 18:12:13 GMT -5 Not Batman said:

Not every evil is going to be a "behind the scenes" guy. To every Red Skull (non-visible evil) there is a Sabretooth (Visible evil) or a Magneto (Visibile Anti-hero) who -wants- to be seen, heard and get their hands dirty. We cannot just say "Well, if you go evil, this is the path we want to see", it needs to be open to all forms.

Never said they would or should. The problem is that other forms just by the nature of the beast are less successful. Starting a visibly evil faction that openly does evil things is going to run into the issue of being on a server that has characters that have existed nearly a decade.

"Hi, I'm a lvl 3 Banite cleric."
"That's cute. I'm am epic paladin." *smite*

Is it fair? No. But it's likely to happen. I never said subtle evil was the only way to go. Just the easiest. You yourself called out the openly evil characters as problematic. I was agreeing.

[Not Batman]

Your previous post implied the opposite, Ladybug. The level spread problem is something that I've pointed to on more occasions that I can even begin to keep track of. As I see it, Evil cannot exist truly on CD until a few things are dealt with.

1) More expanded areas to suit these characters.
2) The stigma against PVP needs to be examined.
3) The stigma against IC conflict needs to be examined.
4) There needs to be DM support.
5) People are so paranoid about metagaming and the like that there will inevitably be the one person who tries to control what every other evil characters does/says/and who they RP with using both IC and OOC means. This needs to be discouraged.
6) The fact that most evil PCs we have had in the past led to massive OOC drama (and worse) means that evil PCs are going to need to be watched, but not discouraged. This will be a hard balance for people to meet.

[Edge]

I personally disagree with the necessity of that list, as none of that stuff is necessary for the things I have planned.

[Not Batman]

Mar 14, 2017 18:45:49 GMT -5 Edge said:

I personally disagree with the necessity of that list, as none of that stuff is necessary for the things I have planned.

Just because it does not relate to your plans and ideas does not mean that it is not relevant, nor that these problems do not exist or have existed in the past.

[Not Batman]

Mar 14, 2017 18:51:25 GMT -5 Edge said:

Regardless, this thread has gotten heavily derailed over the past page, and has swerved away from the idea of recruiting for this idea of Aldabirth's and into a debate over this nonsense. Let's get this back on topic and take this argument to a new thread if you wish to continue.

I do not see the derailing, people are still offering constructive input that we should look over and consider before moving forward if this is to work. So far I've not seen anything making this into a less than tame discussion.

[Mystic Warden]

A second sandbox for evil characters could be a good start. Even if not a final or best solution, at least it would give some possibilities for evil PCs to be evil. Because right now we have practically nothing, that initiated this whole discussion.

We could make the Undercity and the Underdark area a kinda "hardcore" difficulty, with PvP allowed, with proper OOC warnings in the game, too. Go there on your own peril, if somebody does not like it, no problem, he can stick to the surface areas and Arabel. Of course that means that the Underdark areas should be enlarged to give enough room to play for the evil characters. And/or some ways for those evil PC groups to reach some of the existing dungeons for raids, like teleports or some extra cave exits/entrances to facilitate easier travel.

To further emphasize the difference between the surface and the Underdark, some changes in the shops could be done, too. Like removing all evil and necromancy related items, scrolls, etc. from the shops in Arabel and in the other cities. Liesel could also refuse to buy such items, while the Kelemvorite temple would buy them for a nominal fee to destroy them (it would be possible to sell those items there, but it would just vaporize, like items thrown into a trash can, not appearing as buyable in the shop at all). On the other hand, the pawn shop in the Underdark would not have such restriction and would pay full price. What's more, the shops down there could outright offer evil items for sale, contrary to the shops on the surface.