Dungeons- Dispels/AC/etc

[tenorgeneral]

Now that would be a dungeon that I'd love to see...  Then again, maybe I'm just slightly evil...

[Vincent07]

Oh, the Spell School specific wards will be showing up soon enough.  I have a few unique uses in mind for them.

[onivel]

From my own observations from playing this game for far too long regarding those "loaded dice" particularly for those who bump their ACs and saves to unspeakable numbers. The game has a difficulty setting. If you gear/buff yourself to the point that the you need to roll "1"s to fail saves and have an AC that is X points higher than what the mobs can hit on a 19 the game will start having you roll those "1"s and the mobs will start rolling those "20"s more frequently to try to give an appropriate challenge. It is the game's way of trying to deal with / counter what you have done. If you can pump your AC to 56 and you know that on a 19 they can only hit a 47 AC.. it actually behooves you to not get that high. Self cap your AC in the high 40s and you actually will find you get hit less.  

[Edge]

Tenor, that was pretty deliberate misreading/misapplying what I said. I was clearly referring to the base D&D game and obviously there's things in that that don't apply to NWN, nobody's stupid enough to suggest otherwise, I'm certainly not, and I'm a bit insulted you seem to think I have.

But the game IS built off D&D, and it IS going to retain some of the core game's mechanics and designs. One of those being, as Vincent said, "You are going to get hit". You are going to lose HP. And if the encounter is at all challenging, you will get hit multiple times, and require resources - either your own or an ally's, magic, potions, or healkits - to keep up the fight. THAT is what I meant by quoting the encounters section of the rulebooks - Vincent just said it a bit more succinctly, but it is built into the game that anything that cannot manage to scratch you is not worth your time and gives zero reward.

And, since CD has been designed around the assumption that there will be high-level casters buffing every fighter and 90% of people in dungeons have a backpack full of scrolls, the combat on the server has taken that into account and been arranged and prepared accordingly. If you want to adjust what's available in the game re: scrolls and such like, the server will need to be rearranged accordingly - which will be a ton of work that I'm not seeing very many volunteers stepping forward to take the plate.

[tenorgeneral]

I'm not sure what deliberate misreading or misapplying I did...  In fact I'm quite certain I qualified my statement with "if that's what we're going for."

And yeah, you're going to get hit, and risk for reward and all that, but it's indicative of a problem that vast stores of consumables (so vast that stack sizes have been bumped multiple times, and weight on scrolls is zeroed out), are assumed (and thus are required) to go through the higher level content of the server.  To be clear, the issue I'm seeing is not that buffs are required, but that unless the entire party is buffed to the point where they literally have every buff imaginable each (in which case, everything's a cakewalk), then the dungeons are entirely over the top and not completable.  I get that there's a meta everywhere, but the meta here is sooo far skewed to full casters and UMDers that it's nigh impossible to not be one of those or bring along a bunch of them in order to run a dungeon meant for any of the 16+ party levels.  God forbid you take a barbarian, a pair of rangers, a paladin and a fighter to those areas where none are UMDers (except that that party is...  the same CR and should be able to find a way around said dungeon without resorting to hiring a couple buffbots to cover them with ridiculous levels of spell protection.

Maybe I'm off the mark, but I thought a big part of CD was making it enjoyable for everyone, not just gish PCs and primary casters.

[Masque]

I am quite excited about the changes to immunities should really make an interesting dynamic.

I think (and correct me if I am incorrect) CD a long time ago decided that it wanted to be able to challenge the 'balanced group' so it has set all of its dungeons to be able to do this (with varying degrees of success) however that involves having the fundamental make up of these dungeons be able to challenge and cope with the amount of buffs that those type of parties would bring. If you reduce the encounters so people who do not comprise of the 'balanced group' can accomplish them then you weaken the dungeon against its original target audience.

The compromise has always been the scrolls and the proliferation of magical items that allow this 'unbalanced group' to compete but at an additional cost in gold, items and risk. I would be in favour of adding magical items that any class can use that cover the basics without the need for UMD as these builds are much more heavily disadvantaged than others - potentially adding it into items like shield and armours or even just more disposables.

However from what I have taken from this thread one of the base assumptions of CDs design goals is that it is simply a fact that you need magical assistance at high levels.

[aceheart]

You really do need real magical assistance, too.

There's a huge margin between scroll spells and caster spells. Sure, UMD is the devil... until about 12-15 layers of buffs get stripped off in a single dispel, including level 7 and level 8 buffs. And everything dispels, in most dungeons... not just bosses, and it doesn't have to be a boss for you to get de-buffed.

From the point of view of UMD, there's really no problem right now. Dispels rightfully remove scroll buffs... but leave on buffs from a decently-levelled caster. If someone has a build that includes only a few, e.g., 10 caster levels to complement a fighting build, then this is different... and it's more like the scroll situation, and again, rightfully so...

As for items that give buffs without UMD, these exist already. Between the Raven's Plume, and the jewelry shops and their rings, you can reproduce most scroll buffs with use/day items, and potions.

[ThayanKnight]

I don't think dungeons here will ever be easy for a group of all martial combatants. Nor should it be, in my opinion. If you want to do epic dungeons, take a full party including a rogue, mage, cleric, and fighter. If you don't have one of those elements, out may increase the dungeon CR and you might consider a lower end dungeon. Zarus was a straight fighter, but did well by allying with mages. Its a useful technique.

[onivel]

Dec 25, 2013 1:12:21 GMT -5 tenorgeneral said:

............

Maybe I'm off the mark, but I thought a big part of CD was making it enjoyable for everyone, not just gish PCs and primary casters.

The server is meant to be enjoyable by as many as we can accommodate. It will not be, and no server ever will be, ideal for every person and every play style. The "party" example you provided is far from the typical party that most DnD is built around. Usually that is a melee type, a divine caster, an arcane caster, and a rogue. Encounters are primarily built to assume this sort of party. If you run about with all melee types then you are quite obviously not going to be adequately prepared.

[tenorgeneral]

Which is a great design principle to base a PNP campaign around, but unless you intentionally build such a party and schedule dungeon runs (semi-OOCly it feels like), then you're not likely to have a party at all like that in NWN.

Then again, maybe instead of belaboring this point, I should offer to make a few dungeons that are friendly to melee classes rather than mages in the mid to high level range (not post epic, since I have -no- idea how to make a challenging experience post epic).

[Edge]

Good luck doing that without making it something the mages or mage-fighters/buffed clerics can easily tromp, without just making it a dispel fest. The entire game is balanced against you. I guess if you like a challenge....

[Masque]

I think a big challenge you'll face is what would challenge a caster that would be easier for a fighter? A fighter is essentially a high bab character who has feats that stop becoming useful after about level 6. A barbarian is a high bab character who doesn't even get the feats.

There isn't much in the way of unique things they can do that other classes and combinations can't also do. The cleric being the prime example that not only does it get a low level spell that can make up for its 3/4 bab but it also gets access to spells that allow it to do more damage in combat and while it can wear the same armour as the fighter character it then gets a slew of spells to enhance it. You remove the spells? You get a PC with the same AC and a marginally lower AB.

That being said I would love someone to build new dungeons so certainly wouldn't want to discourage someone from adding new content. It just seems like it would be an uphill struggle to address the fundamental imbalance between melee and magic without changes to the actual classes themselves.

[onivel]

Tenor ...the server is meant for Roleplay which generally means parties. Most folks do not seem to have a problem finding/forming a party. Yes it may require a little OOC via tells to help arrange it. Usually the mere mention of heading out somewhere while in central will prompt a number of folks to ask if you want/need help or at least ask where are you heading which would lead to opportunity to ICly invite them along. It is really not nearly the trial you seem to be making it out to be.

There are also numerous groups that have formed and are forming that can help you get involved with a group so that you can get a more balanced party together. If one doesn't suit you, start one that does. Take some initiative. 

 Feel free to build dungeons. The more the merrier. Though I will say there are already many that are melee friendly as you suggest. My lvl 12 dwarven fighter tromps through most mid level dungeons with little more than a bulls pot, an endurance pot and some heal kits. No ECL or mage required. Addition of mages or clerics simply makes them easier. 

[kingofaquilonia]

Well really I would be fine with it if we needed a well balanced party but the fact is... that one cleric or that one high level mage or that one caster gish, can plow through the dungeons on there own , only the mords will get them.

They have NO need for the fighter/barb/front liner.

That and I guess its just one of my things but the dungeons on the server I don't consider being something that's supposed to be stupid hard where you use like 300,000 gold worth of supplies to get through them.

I usually only expect that kind of difficulty in a DM event. Anything where a DM isn't involved I expect to be able to beat the crap out of, I know I build my characters well. However dispels are just... they make me want to punch the Orphans... all of them... >.<

[Edge]

Dec 25, 2013 13:11:48 GMT -5 Masque said:

That being said I would love someone to build new dungeons so certainly wouldn't want to discourage someone from adding new content. It just seems like it would be an uphill struggle to address the fundamental imbalance between melee and magic without changes to the actual classes themselves.

As I stated earlier in the thread, you really can't - it's built into the core mechanics of the game - without introducing new mechanics such as the things that were brought in near the tail end of 3.5 that narrowed the gap slightly such as Book of Nine Swords, Tome of Magic, and such like, or Pathfinder's revamps to some of the martial classes such as Ranger's Favored Terrains and Quarry, Barbarian Rage Powers, and so forth. (Fighters and Rogues still got the shaft, unfortunately, but that's a whole other can of trouble.)

With what NWN has made available to us, there's nothing a Fighter (without buffs, without scrolls, without magical assistance in any way) can take on that a Mage with a summoned monster or a self-buffing Cleric can't handle UNLESS it involves a horde of enemies sitting there spamming dispel, which this entire thread is based around being the latest definition of Not Fun. And there's quite a few things that those characters can still handle better even than the Fighter, even IF they're given buffs and not dispelled. It's just the nature of the beast - magic beats mundane, simple as that.

As Onivel said, the game is designed around parties. Mages buff the Fighters up, send them out to lay some havoc, throw down some attack or debuff or dispelling spells in the meantime. Clerics buff, share in the smashing of faces, heal, and occasionally join the mages in laying down magical cover fire. Rogues and rogue-types handle traps, scouting, and assist in the face-smashing once the Fighters and Clerics have the enemy's attentions. (Though the current prevalence of anti-rogue things like so many enemies being immune to Sneak Attacks makes this a bit more difficult, this at least is a small-enough scope problem that it can be handled on a case-by-case basis, or better future dungeons to be brought in can simply avoid using that particular crutch.)

Trying to design a dungeon to ignore or refute these designs is going to be near-impossible, or not accomplish the desired goal, because it simply can't be done. The game - both NWN and D&D - are not designed for it, when limited to the small scope of resources that NWN is: core-only content and a small selection of feats, spells, and prestige classes outside that. And NWN, the game engine itself, is just not capable of handling the resources from later in the 3.5 lifespan that worked to change that paradigm.