Monk Orders

[goodapollo]

Is it possible the monk order restrictions could be simplified some, or at the very, very least, expanded to fit the custom classes here? (I don't think I see a single order that uses one of the classes added) A Dark Moon monk, for instance, doesn't seem to be able to take shadow adept (or shadow dancer), and I know there's at least a few monk orders missing. Not to mention the fact that surely a monk whose patron diety didn't have an established order would figure things out, since monks without orders learn monk abilities regardless. 

How about, instead: A monk can take one class somehow relating to their order or that of their deity within common sense, so long as monk is higher?
Or: Allow monks to just straight up request a specific multiclass.

I'm sure it wouldn't hurt to ease the restrictions a little, and maybe there'd be a monk or two around more without the hoop-jumping.

[Arya]

What I think the server should have done was take into account deity descriptions.  For instance, Jergal's deity descriptor indicated his clerics commonly multiclassed as monk, but that gets ignored here in the name of cracking down on monks, so to speak. In any case, that is at least my thought on the matter.

~Arya

[Nymera]

I think this is a "can of worms" problem.

Let's be honest: Monk is one of those problem classes that is very good to take a single level in on a lot of classes for a dramatic leap in power. This is mitigated in tabletop DnD and CD by the tight restrictions of the monk orders, in a way that makes lore sense.

If we start modifying the monk restrictions from what they are written in the actual books then every single class and order is up for debate and scrutiny(and given the potential power in multiclassing monk, a lot of hurt feelings and cries of unfair decisions about which classes and which orders get what).  It would be a nightmare.

This is one of those cases where the best course of action is to point to the source material and end the discussion there.

[goodapollo]

Thus the 'as long as monk is higher' restriction. Because the source material, as with damn near everything else, contradicts itself in a lot of places, see also the Jergal mention above, and the fact that Dark Moon monks, despite being uses of the shadow weave, can't take any Sharran/Shadow Weave classes but sorc.

Even with restricting to Source Material, there's room for monks to be less needlessly restricted. Because as long as you remove the whole 'Take one level of monk for unbeatable druid or cleric' problem, they're not even that good of a class mechanically, because 3E (and 3.5, and pathfinder, and....) monks are basically garbage meleers with a couple tricks. Monk is a lot like fighter: If you're going to multiclass, you don't need more than a few.

Letting monks take levels in Divine Seeker or, I don't know, Shadow Adept, isn't going to make them 'better', just more appealing on a server where part of the appeal (at least for me) is unique/newish classes.

It just seems like it would be easier to simplify to something like... 'one multiclass, monk level must be higher, the class you take is within deific/order reason'
I mean I guess you could power-build an 11 monk/9 druid of Silvanus along those rules or something but it would A. Take months and months to level regardless and, B. Still be weaker than a pure druid let alone the mages that exist, and probably weaker than a pure monk.

[Arya]

Just a little bit of a point of amusement for me. >.>

If people want to make house rules, then that is great.  But I hate this pretentiousness of saying one only goes by the material when there are clear house rules.  It is not to say those do not exist without a reason (sometimes), but let's just stop pretending we are strictly going by the material.  :-D

People make house rules in PnP all the time.

Alright.  Done on that point. Now onto a suggestion that came to mind...

And I think making people take at least six levels of monk (or something), or make their AC bonus come after so many levels versus from the start, is not a bad idea if people wanted to make them more flexible to multiclassing but prevent abuse.

~Arya

[goodapollo]

I've always seen D&D as a skeleton set of rules to apply imagination onto, but that's just me.

In that vein, though: How about if you have more non-monk levels than monk levels, you lose your monk speed, AC, and Iterative attacks.
(Pushing out clerics, druids, and dual kama rogues.)

Still, I don't see the harm in just forcing monk to be the highest class, while allowing for more RP flexibility. I know for an absolute fact Mask has monk/shadowdancers in canon, but they're not represented. I'm just advocating for more diversity among what monks can be.

[Deleted]

The admins have previously stated that they will be looking into the monk and paladin multiclassing rules and restrictions.  They are looking into several alternatives.

We had a brief instance in the past where several characters were starting as monks then powerbuilding from there.

[Arya]

Yeah, I remember those.

I am not saying there should not be house rules.  But at the same time, I do like a little flexibility within reason - at least stuff that complies to the deity descriptions and such in addition to the list of multiclass options and canon orders. 
Sincerely,
Arya

[Fire Wraith]

As Bella said, it's something we're looking at.  Honestly the goal isn't to screw with people who are making a legitimate roleplay build (and we've taken steps to make the whole 1 level builds not valuable, the key abilities aren't granted until 3rd) so much as to try to put a sanity check on the people who want to game the system to the point that credulity breaks down.

Technically even by the FR rules, for instance, you could begin as a level 1 monk, decide to leave your order, and start taking your cleric levels.  You're not allowed to advance further as a monk, but who cares, you have what you wanted already.  For obvious reasons, this is considered BS despite being within the letter of the law.

We're really a lot less about the letter of the law, and more about the spirit of the law.

[darthweasel]

Jul 8, 2014 22:54:52 GMT -5 Arya Kalarathri said:

Just a little bit of a point of amusement for me. >.>

If people want to make house rules, then that is great.  But I hate this pretentiousness of saying one only goes by the material when there are clear house rules.  It is not to say those do not exist without a reason (sometimes), but let's just stop pretending we are strictly going by the material.  :-D

People make house rules in PnP all the time.

Alright.  Done on that point. Now onto a suggestion that came to mind...

And I think making people take at least six levels of monk (or something), or make their AC bonus come after so many levels versus from the start, is not a bad idea if people wanted to make them more flexible to multiclassing but prevent abuse.

~Arya

As a player of a monk who's likely to stay pure classed I have to ask how anyone would expect to survive in any legitimate way to get to level 4 even if monks lost their wis based AC at the start. Without that they are not even viable in a fight.

Here is a suggestion I have on it. IF a player wants to make one of these more unique builds as Fire mentioned above (legit rp reasons) it should be done just like a special race request. That also means your half dragon is not going to be able to go monkdruidcleric lol leetz powrz. Pure class, or accepted orders multiclassing would be exempt from it.

This would also include taking classes after in game events pushed someone to cross class.

[Fire Wraith]

If you're going pure monk, then you begin with it, since you start at level 3, and the feat is given at 3rd level.

We tried to set it so that it addresses the worst problems while not affecting the bulk of players.

As for any bizaare edge cases, we can always leto the feat onto you early.

[explosiverunes]

Jul 12, 2014 0:03:37 GMT -5 Fire Wraith said:

If you're going pure monk, then you begin with it, since you start at level 3, and the feat is given at 3rd level.

We tried to set it so that it addresses the worst problems while not affecting the bulk of players.

As for any bizaare edge cases, we can always leto the feat onto you early.

The particular edge case that comes to mind is an ECL race, which starts at 2.  But since those require LETOs anyway, I suppose that is a viable and not particularly obstructive solutioj.

[Deleted]

Jul 11, 2014 23:30:37 GMT -5 darthweasel said:

Here is a suggestion I have on it. IF a player wants to make one of these more unique builds as Fire mentioned above (legit rp reasons) it should be done just like a special race request. That also means your half dragon is not going to be able to go monkdruidcleric lol leetz powrz. Pure class, or accepted orders multiclassing would be exempt from it.

This would also include taking classes after in game events pushed someone to cross class.

I think this is an excellent solution, and allows with keeping the spirit of the original rule.

[Arya]

Pretty much something I have been wanting to see for a while.  :-)  And I agree with Bella's opinion on it.

Sincerely,
Arya

[Fire Wraith]

Well.

To be quite honest, you get the feat at level 1 if you start with that as your base class.  Remember how you can't pick the custom skills during character creation?  That's because the custom 2das don't load until after you finish.  Thus you get Bioware default - which applies to feats as well.  That's why the fighting style feats start applying at 2nd level, not 1st, in a base class.

Now, this isn't particularly exploitable, because if someone tried to do that, we'd just smack them anyway.