Messages

I wanted to take a moment this morning to raise a proverbial glass to Fox.  There's a great deal that I could try and list here, how they have contributed to CD and made it a better place, but I'd only forget something and fall short, I will keep it simple:

To Fox.

welcome.   I knew and played with your mother, she was a wonderful person.   It's absolutely made my day to see you here and be reminded of her.

Welcome, welcome.  I can't stress enough, "welcome".

[Need]

Good morning,

I've held off responding here for a while, while I feel like some of the points I want to make may seem obvious -  I worry that some of them may be controversial.    So will start confidently with the obvious and move warily towards the more controversial.

Supply of events is clearly being dwarfed by demand, clearly this isn't great  but it's indicative of a healthy, growing and engaged community who want to take part, get involved and be part of the story.      As a Euro player, with a day job it's a little bit harder for me than most, but I can also say as a veteran player of several years that there are DMs who actively go out of their way to host and run events in Euro-friendly time zones, regardless of them being a Euro themselves. 

So, point 1 - as much as there's an issue here (and obviously, there is).   I think it's worth reflecting on the positive, growing state of CD.
Point 2 -   The DMs really are trying.    They're not just gliding along blindly, ignoring your pleas or your frustrations.     - The ones I know and have become friends with, they're good people.  They care, they won't be reading this discussion, sitting back and going "lol, not my problem".     They'll be doing what they can, but... On to... 

Point 3  - DMs are here to have fun.   It's a game, we not only want our DMs to have fun we Need them to have fun.   DMs that are having fun, run events!  DMs that turn DMing into a job, into a chore to try and quest everyone and keep everyone happy at the expense of their own free time and sanity burn out.   That only serves to make things worse for everyone, because now there's even less supply of quest time. 

This leads me onto my first controversial point, DMs have friends.   They hear these frustrations and complaints from their friends in private conversations too - so, naturally, when a DM is posting a new event for the first time in a while, if they know their friend is desperate to get into a quest, they're going to give them a little nudge.   "Hey buddy, I'm just about to post an event, I remembered you said you've been struggling to get into one lately, so if you're interested and the time works, feel free to join mine".  
 -  Now, obviously, I can't prove it happens.  Those are Private conversations, but I'm pretty sure it does.   Leaning more into the controversial side, anecdotally I can think of probably 1 or 2 DMs that I never remember seeing run a quest which doesn't have 1 or 2 of their closest 4 friends in every time. 

Point Number 4 -  While this can be frustrating for an observer who may just see "Oh DM x is running an event for their friends again" - I feel like that's a very negative interpretation, unnecessarily so.   The DM is trying to do a nice thing, for a nice person - and of course they want to run events with their friends in them!  Who doesn't like playing games with their friends?  The DMs are generally speaking good people, trying to make fun for themselves, for their friends and for the server as a whole. 

Point number 5 - a lot of these posts tend to make comparisons.   It's not just a case of "I'd like some more events please", but rather "I'd like some more events please and it's not fair because that guy over there is getting more than me".     While I can understand this, and I understand the reason for wanting to call out when something doesn't seem entirely fair I'm not honestly sure the second part is really that helpful  - either to the person complaining, or to the staff.     Because, ultimately, what you're really saying is "I want as many events as they've got now".    To which the solution is not to try and limit quest attendance by those perceived as the lucky, or greedy, few but to try and find mechanisms for increase quest availability so that supply can keep up with demand.     Reducing someone else's questing opportunities to increase your own won't make the server a happier place, it will just move around the frustration to someone else. 


So Point 6 -  I mentioned earlier that no one person can fix this problem, I've mentioned a few times that this comes down to a simple case of demand outstripping supply.   I have, tried at least, to humanise the all parties in this equation a little bit more.   We're all just people, here to play a game and try and have fun - none of us are the villain.    So, I would propose that rather than introducing controls and processes and monitoring to ensure that everyone is quested equally  - a task that would reduce the number of events, as it would consume hours of staff time every month instead I echo LackOfImagination...   We have more active players than we did before, therefore we need more active DMs.    So the server needs not just the DMs which are old-hands at this now to "Do more" (Yikes, I felt bad just saying that) -  we need the newer influx of players to really join in with the server community and take up the mantle of story-telling DM themselves. 


Thanks,

 - Ven

Dingo,

So sorry to hear about your mum and pet.   That's really rough.

Thoughts and prayers with you, if there's anything can be done to offer even a little distraction or help do please let us know.     Can't do much, but even if it's just having company to run through a dungeon, or someone to talk to, I (and I am sure many others) will do whatever we can.

Jul 30, 2022 19:49:58 GMT -5 Terallis said:

Given the situation itself, I'll advise to please submit a complaint/concern report into the admins if there are issues with it. Please and thanks!

Complaints/Concern Form can be found here

But I don't have a complaint?   I have no quarrel or issue with either of the other characters, or players, involved in this situation.   I also think that given CD has a growing evil population (Drow and non-Drow) and has - it seems to this observer- actively courted and encouraged the creation of more evil characters by creating space for them to be evil (The UD, then Yulash).  Given the predominantly good-aligned nature of most of the server (Cormyr, Highmoon, Velethuil)  there's a growing likelihood that escalating conflicts will start to develop.

It's my personal opinion that an open discussion on what this means for the server and effective ways of responding which help to ensure everyone has fun, is a good thing.

Afternoon all,

Yesterday,  I found myself in a situation with my Chaotic Good, Pro-Freedom (Very, very anti-slavery) character that I didn't know how to handle.   So, I'm looking for a little advice to avoid the outcome I got, which was basically to log out and not to play, because I could see no good outcomes. 

I was heading to a dungeon, crossed paths with 2 other people heading the same way.  A Drow (openly, visibly a Drow) and their slave.   Worth noting this was on the surface.   Without getting into a blow-by-blow, I think it's pretty likely my character who is passionately anti-slavery is going to work out pretty fast this is not a nice Drow and that the surfacer with them was their slave.     In those circumstances, ICly, my character would (I think, reasonably?)  kill them - or try to, at least. 

Assuming they even agree to PvP, that's not really fun for anyone right?  They die.   My character investigates them, maybe figures out who their disguised appearance is?   But even if they do, they're not allowed to tell anyone, because that breaks the "Don't out people rule".   He's not about to raise them, or heal their wounds - their an evil slaver.   Presumably they just respawn.

So what happens next?   If they try to complain about the attack ICly, they out themselves as an evil Drow, so they won't do that.   If they don't complain and I'm not allowed to out them, or say anything about it, then... That's that.   My character beats up someone else's character, they respawn.  Nothing really changes, or grows or improves.  There's no story.

It's possible the evil drow tries to plot revenge, but, what can they really do?  They're not allowed to just assassinate, or poison my character - and even if they were, does it really make IC sense?  They were killed and died, they shouldn't be in a position to be able to take revenge.   Any revenge they take is likely to just be "Now you're dead, please respawn - but you can't RP about what happened because that would out my Drow and that's against the rules".

However I game it out,  it seems to lead to dead-ends.  Nobody wins and chances are at least one party, if not both, end up frustrated.

--

So, I didn't do anything.   I pretended I didn't see them, I went back to town and I logged off.  It seemed to me that not playing was better than creating any of the situations above, so I did, but surely the solution can't simply be "Don't play" or "ignore it until it goes away".   There must be a better option here?

This sounds like a great idea and I would be interested in principle, but would also wait to learn a little more about the IC hook, timings, etc, before wanting to commit.

Hey folks,

A few of you have reached out to me privately over the past few months asking me if I am alright.    I am.   I am happy, healthy and well.    Thank you very much for reaching out to me and getting in touch, it's a big compliment and speaks highly of each of you, much appreciated you amazing people.

That being said, shouldn't expect to see me on CD for a spell.   While I (eagerly) look forward to the next instalment of Fox's plotline with our little band off in the games, the day-to-day of CD just doesn't appeal to me in the way it once did.    I may very well be back at some point down the road, CD has been an 'RP home' of sorts for me over the years, but right now I'm off & keeping myself entertained with other distractions. 

I hope you all continue to enjoy yourselves greatly on CD.   Feel free to reach out on Discord if you're so inclined, I've not fallen off the planet and am usually happy to chat if I'm not busy.

Ta ta for now!

 - Ven

On principle and the surface of the idea, I like thinking that we could make a change like this to take the pressure off and make dungeons more conductive to RP.     However, as Nym has outlined above, it's not quite that simple.    There's a broad range and reach of knock-on effects.    

Mages and clerics suddenly don't need to use as many spell slots to repeat their short-duration buffs, giving them access to more 'attack' spells, changing the dynamic and power level of these classes significantly.    Fighter types would also suddenly be much more powerful - no longer would the more valuable, shorter-duration buffs be used just in the big fights or to tackle bosses, but characters would have them up and running constantly.

As a result, dungeons and encounters across the server would need to be buffed in order to account for the increase in power across the board.    This is just a huge amount of work for our volunteer staff.

-
There's also something to be said for checking-in with the people you're running the dungeon with.  There are absolutely times where I'd prefer to RP my way through a dungeon, there are other times (often during periods of peak stress), where I just want to login, smack something around for an hour and then log back out to get back on with whatever is happening in real life.    -  Depends on the day, depends on the mood.  The thing is to try and be considerate of everyone's needs, so everyone can have fun

In short, I really like your instincts and that your motivation is on wanting to promote and facilitate RP, but I'm not sure it's as simple to fix, as it may initially seem.

[is]

First of all, let me say thank you and well done for a well-written, clear and thoughtful post.    It's respectful and polite while clearly raising your thoughts and concerns.     I'd like to respond in kind with my thoughts.  Like your own disclaimer, these are just my thoughts   They're not intended as an attack, or argumentative, either towards Sneaky who started this conversation, the server itself or anyone in it. 

"RP XP Does not Encourage RP" / "It discourages activity"

I agree, it doesn't encourage RP - I agree, if anything, I think it discourages it.

 People will go and idly walk about the server, taking one transition every 5 minutes or so to go and get their ticks, there's also the now-infamous "Turns a page in their book" emote, which many suspect (rightly or wrongly) as being a way for people to mostly afk while their character is reading, with an excuse to occasionally emote and get their ticks.   These behaviours do not add to RP, they tend to detract from it - as someone may try to RP with the AFK-ish 5 minute explorer, or page-turner, only to get no response, become frustrated and give up.    I admit, this has happened to me enough times that if I see someone standing in the street, or standing in the square with a book I often don't even try to say hello.  I just walk on by and look for something else to do.

 - That being said.  RP is kind've the name of the game, for me at least.  It's why I'm here.   I don't particularly need an incentive to RP.  The RP is the Incentive.   I suspect regardless of the system you use there will always be some manner of flaw in it which will encourage people to get xp with the minimal amount of effort, so I'm not sure this makes CD's system particularly flawed. 


It severely restricts creating new characters

On this point, I respectfully disagree.  There's a constant turnstile of new characters pumping into the server on a pretty frequent basis.   From new players and old players alike, there's almost always people in your level range available to play with and adventure with, allowing for new dynamics and the exploring of new stories. 


Yes, it means that if you were hoping to catch-up with someone, that's going to take you a while (but not impossible, since levelling gets progressively slower as you need more and more rp xp for each level).  It also means that if you have alt-itis and want to play several characters, while your friend(s) play just 1 you're likely to fall behind, but I would suggest that's likely true of any xp system.  The more you play, the more xp you get, generally speaking.

It limits player's ability to create storylines

(Here's my controversial bit)  I agree that limitations on players' ability to create their own storylines is an issue, but I don't think it's because of the XP system.   When it comes to storytelling I tend to feel that levels, while they can play a part, aren't hugely significant.   

To give an example, there was a story/situation not that long ago where my character, with I think 7 to 8 levels on their potential threat/rival was in real danger.    For my part, as long as the other character/player was clever about it, I'd have accepted (quite literally) a knife in the back.    In other words a conflict that relied on story, cunning and guile rather than the game's combat engine.    Okay, to be fair, we went out of our way a little bit to blur the lines on some skill checks and things in favour of being able to let the story continue, than being particularly picky and bringing it to a premature conclusion -but in my mind, that's just being a good sport, regardless of level. 

All that being said, the story came to an end, without a conclusion when we reached a point in the story where we all felt a DM's input and oversight was appropriate.   Not least because there was certainly the potential for NPC powers/forces to be involved and apply pressure in one way or another.    No DM wanted to pick up the story and so a build-up of months fizzled out and remains unresolved.   Subsequently, the player on the other side of the story largely seems to have given up on CD and moved on to other servers. 

There are other examples where a character's story hasn't been properly approved or vetted by the staff on CD in advance, usually with newer players to the server.    This can result in character's story being vetoed when they do hit the radar, with players reacting by giving up on the character, or the server entirely.   - Once again there's no accusation or blame here.   The newer player made a mistake and didn't realise the need to apply or get approval, the staff are just applying the rules equally to everyone in order to protect the integrity of story telling across the server.   Yet, without blaming anyone, the fact remains that the character/player driven story simply ends.

Of course DMs are volunteers and they're people with real lives and their own pressures.  It's not reasonable to expect or demand that one will pop-up as required whenever and for whatever asked.  Not saying that's wrong, not at all.  I often feel quite protective towards our DMs and hate to ever feel like I'm bothering them or wasting their time,  but I do think it is worth identifying the impact and cost of relying on DMs for significant story telling. 

My point is, I believe This is why the server can feel like a social server.  Not because of the Xp system, but because without DM oversight and/or prior approval a lot of stories simply cannot be told and DM's time and interest is finite.   The stories that can be told are ones of friendships, rivalries and romances. 

"But Ven, are you saying players can't do anything meaningful without a DM?"

That depends on your definition of meaningful.    My answer is, of course not!   - but my answer may still have you feeling like it's a social server.


 Feredir went through a crisis of faith and soul searching without a DM, which eventually lead him to converting to Eilistraee.  It was one of the most difficult decisions of his life, to turn his faith and prayers not to a god within the Seldarine, but to one literally exiled from the Seldarine, it involved numerous conversations with his nearest and dearest and spanned a period of months.    Julian is similarly going through a period of soul-searching right now, realising that he's not quite as "Free and honest" as he perhaps thought he was.   This has significant implications for his faith and strikes at the core of who he thinks he is, I don't honestly know what the outcome of this story will be (my favorite bit) and I'm looking forward to seeing how it pans out. 

But these are only meaningful to my character.  They're not significant in any broader sense.  Whereas even something as relatively 'safe' as a Yuletide party, a scavenger hunt, friendly duels/tournament, games in the hot springs, a charity fashion show, or a potluck at the Immerflow oaks (to name just a few examples from this year), have required a DM to either set them up or run them, or both.   Anything more significant and everything that may touch on the lives of an NPC or have an NPC react to it in any way, requires a DM, with no guarantee of a DM being available or willing. 

 There are very good reasons why staff oversight of storyline is important and valuable.   I'm not advocating for a mass change of policy or practice.  CD's storytelling and DM system allows for huge sweeping stories of truely epic significance such as our server plots and some very, very interesting personal plots and stories, which can have character-altering outcomes.    Yet, like any system it isn't perfect and it isn't for everyone and I can't help but feel like we do ourselves a disservice if we don't acknowledge that. 


I've already said a lot, so I'll leave it there - but to say again:   Please, please, this isn't intended as an attack or criticism of anyone.  I wouldn't be playing on CD if I didn't enjoy myself and see its merits and positives.   

Fox² 

From light hearted fun, puzzles and tests, stories with depth, treasure hunts and Fox's scripting "Magic" - so often praised, discussed and praised and adored by the community.   CD would not be the place it is without them.

I and many others are very grateful.

 OC!   Blast from the past, good to see you.

Best/fastest place to request help is probably the "Support" chat in Discord.  For information/link on how to join CD's Discord, you can follow the link below to the relevant topic.

forums.cormyrdalelands.com/index.php?msg=44046/thread

I will confess to being tempted to "chase" ticks, especially when my characters are closer to a level.    It's a trap I've fallen into a couple times, but I legitimately find I have more fun and tell better stories when I play to have fun, rather than to chase xp.    

It's great to be part of such a support community.  Congrats Vince and thanks to all who contributed.