Item and Dungeon Levels, Gating, and Locks

[Fire Wraith]

So since a lot of people seem to have some misconceptions about this, I wanted to discuss more at length what's going on with all of this. Secondly, if anyone has any suggestions for better accomplishing the overall goals, this is the place to discuss that too.

First, to clear up how treasure on CD works. It's not dependent on your level, nor the level of your party. It is entirely predefined by the level set on the treasure chest itself (and therefore the dungeon it's in). While some players have their superstitions about how or why loot works, none of those have any bearing on what drops.*

Secondly, what drops is generally random, but the level of the chest has a strong influence on this, because that dictates which tier of loot it can draw from. As a general rule of thumb, it tends to draw from the tier below, the tier it's at, and also has a very small chance to draw from the next tier up. Thus, the design principle is that at a given level, you will mostly be looking for gear at your level, and might get really lucky and find something better than you would expect to. As you gain levels, and move to harder dungeons, the items you can find grow progressively better as well.

This is matched, in part, by the progression of the shops in the module. At first you can buy mundane items and a few +1 items. Over time, this gets better. Roughly speaking, the stores are meant to offer 'catch up' gear, in case you missed something. At 16th level, you can (roughly) buy +3 gear, i.e. Tier 3/Blue, because by that level, we would expect that you have mostly blue gear, and if you need any replacement pieces, you can now buy those.

*The exception is that the treasure generator is indeed an inherently evil and intelligent entity, and at times will do cruel and horrible things, but this has nothing to do with level.

So that's the theory and design intent. 

Now consider it like this - what would happen if we threw the shops open entirely, to the point that you could start off buying +4 or +5 gear?

Everyone would have it, and while some people might still run dungeons for XP or just for the heck of it, the "ooh, what did we find?" factor is largely eliminated. We believe this factor is an important part of the fun of dungeon content, so we're very keen on keeping it around. We only have so much in the way of gear to award, because our tier system ends at +5 - so when people try and run it out early, there's nothing left after.

And unfortunately, that sort of thing is effectively what starts happening when people give lower level characters items that they shouldn't be able to get on their own - whether by handing it to them after letting them join a high level dungeon run, or selling it to them, or whatnot. We see the power creep already in the fact that people are complaining because I'm telling them they shouldn't be stocking up on +4 gear at level 9.

We've been to this point once before, which is part of why we put the color level codes on in the first place. They were meant to be very lenient, in that we figured we were giving a few extra levels of leeway beyond when people should be finding them - except people have taken that level, and started jumping way past it.

So that's the primary issue, mostly.


So we've taken two steps to address it.

One is setting a minimum level to even carry the item, to prevent the worst abuses - but this still doesn't address the core problem of people gearing way ahead of their level. We could set it as a hard limit (meaning you can't carry anything even 1 tier above), but I worry that might penalize people who legitimately get the "lucky find".

Two is setting a minimum level to enter the highest level dungeons, because people were being taken through long before it was appropriate. We used to make the policy that you could bring anyone, as long as they contributed and took relatively equal risks (i.e., shooting arrows from the back was fine, standing around invisible while the others kill stuff was not). Unfortunately we seem unable to trust the community to self-police on that, and as there are only four admins, we can't constantly be watching. We felt therefore that it was better to lock the dungeon, and that way, if you wanted to do an inclusive dungeon run, you could go somewhere more appropriate for the entire group's level range, and if you wanted to do a challenging epic dungeon, you'd bring an appropriate group for that.

We've still left a lot of dungeons open, including some that are notably hard/challenging. If you are below the level 15 (or 18) cutoff for some of these, I can guarantee that there are still a number of ones you could run - dungeons that you might have otherwise found, but you aren't aware of because the higher level veteran players don't run those very often. If you need assistance getting pointed in the direction of one, feel free to ask - or just pick one from the list, and go searching for it.

[silentsteps]

"One is setting a minimum level to even carry the item, to prevent the worst abuses - but this still doesn't address the core problem of people gearing way ahead of their level. We could set it as a hard limit (meaning you can't carry anything even 1 tier above), but I worry that might penalize people who legitimately get the "lucky find"."

Personally, I do not mind the implemented system and see the uses and arguments for it solid. This was one of my concerns, as a person who enjoyes going through the dungeons, just becasue when I come from work, I often do not feel like doing high focused RP, I can go mindless dungeon crawl. Now, I've had situation in which I've found items tier above what I should have, concern is that I am penalized for it for keeping them, if they were of any use to the character.

I can understand the established means against muling items for lowbies, which is good. Keeps the world living and dangerous place to be in.


EDIT: Does the admind or DM's have means to check where the item originated from? For example in cases to check if the players found the item from a dungeon or in case of muling? Perhaps it could be used to ensure that those who have tier above items, acually earned them by lucky strike?

[Edge]

One tier above is not really an issue. There is a chance - very small, but present - of a chest or other item drop script pulling an item from a tier one higher than normal. (So a 5-10 area might pull a blue item, or a 11-15 area might pull a purple, etc.) Furthermore, the script policing item acquisitions only does so for items two tiers above, not one, so getting that lucky roll shouldn't have you fighting against the script to get something rightfully earned. (No chest script pulls from two tiers up, no matter how lucky your roll, so that shouldn't be an issue. You'll never see a purple in a 5-10 dungeon, or an orange in a 11-15 dungeon.)

The only real ways to get your hands on an item two tiers above your current level is to either be in a dungeon intended for characters well above your level, or to be given that item by a higher-level character. So while we cannot actually perform any sort of check on the item itself to determine its place of origin, the system as designed limits the ability to acquire an item that far above your current station.

[silentsteps]

Ah, thanks for clarification. Had misunderstood so that you would be policing one tier above as well. Good to know that I can continue my mindless dungeon crawling. Fun to explore places.

[Fire Wraith]

No, it was just something tossed out as an example. Part of this is to give people an opportunity to offer suggestions as to what they think would work better.

Part of the reason I brought that up is because I'm concerned that the scenario of "at-level group makes rare find" is very much the exception, and "higher level gives you higher tier item, or runs you through higher tier dungeon where those drops are normal" is far more common. This heavily subverts the rule, and it makes me wonder if there's any way we can maintain the former, and reduce/get rid of the latter.

This is partly where the lock on the higher level dungeons came in, because it's been our impression that a lot of the over-tier items were coming from the fact that higher level players were taking people on runs, and then giving them the loot. At one point in the past we thought it might be okay, but it was clearly getting far out of hand.

[Deleted]

Out of curiousity was 'the getting far out of hand' the exception or the rule?

[trylobyte]

The only chance I can see of realistically picking up an item two tiers above your level is pulling a blue item out of the goblin bolthole, which can be cleared by a group of determined level 3-4 players using readily available powergaming tricks (though by the time they finish they may cross into the level 5 range).  And that almost requires you to specifically try and do that.

I have a theory as to why all this happens, but I don't have time to type it up before I need to head off somewhere.  I'll post a long version later, but the short version is that this isn't really an issue of twinking items or powergaming so much as a sign of an in-game economic problem.  There are too many purple and orange items that are too good to vendor but too bad to use (usually due to the items being situational or having very specific builds that want them) and it's entirely possible for a lower-level character to have enough gold to buy these items from a higher-level player at going market value.  The selling player gets more money and the pleasing sensation of helping someone, and the lower-level player gains an item and the security of knowing they won't have to farm for it.  It's a win-win for everything except server balance, and that's what makes it such a difficult issue to manage.

[Fire Wraith]

@kimimaro : If things "getting out of hand" was the exception, we'd try and talk to people on a case by case basis. No, it was far too widespread, unfortunately.

trylobyte: Every treasure chest has two tables, the one it normally rolls on, and the one it rolls on instead if it gets "100" on the first table. That doesn't mean it's rolling on the next tier up, necessarily, so you could still end up with the 'same' result, meaning that if the first has a chance to pull from the +2 weapon bucket, the '100+' tables could also come up with the +2 bucket, but it also has a chance to hit the +3 bucket maybe. And yes, there are tier 4 spots where you could see an epic drop, but the chance is really really crazy low.

[Fire Wraith]

And yes - I dunno, maybe we should just tell people not to sell or give stuff to anyone of a lower tier, not just based on the item. Meaning that a level 20 shouldn't be selling a tier 3 item to a level 11, because even though that level 11 can easily get it, the level 20 is going to be positively swimming in tier 3 items, and it's much easier to get for them than it is for the level 11.

Maybe we also need to reduce non-item cash drops in higher end dungeons, though I don't think that's as much the problem. Maybe we need more high-end consumeables for 16/20+ PCs?

[Mystic Warden]

I am in full support of this decision.

I always saw a problem with RPG games (both online and PnP) where the rewards were too lenient. When gold, XP, powerful magic and gear was dished out recklessly or readily available than players quickly loose motivation to do anything. Outside of these, the storytelling part is the other big motivator for players, where they can really play their characters out and propel the characters' s stories meaningfully, however it usually requires a DM. DM presence is not an issue in PnP, but a NWN persistent world most possibly does not have the DM capacity to provide adequate coverage of this for all the playerbase. So it is usually in the best interest of any servers to keep the material motivations from above (XP, gold, magic, items) present as long as possible.

The trick is to balance it with the fun factor as being too restrictive on those material gains kills player motivation equally. I played a while on the infamous Escape from Underdark server, where for example even general +1 weapons were unavailable, the ones giving the +1 bonus only gave it against a certain enemy type. Although I had no problem with this, it is probably too much for the wider playerbase. As per my very subjective judgement/feeling, CD is about okay with the actual balance, maybe a little dial back would do good. A bit more prudence on enforcing the item limit restrictions and item availability (like this change about dungeon access) is one such a little dial back, so I am welcoming it.

I see two more points where things could be changed for a bit better:

1) Our beloved pawn shop owner, Liesel. She is the major source of gold for the PCs. Comparing the gold a PC can get as his share from chests and monster killing from a dungeon, and the share he receives from the selling of unnecessary loot, it is easily between 1:5 to 1:10 (e.g. 2k gold from the chests/monsters, 15-20k gold from the sold loot). IMHO she pays too good for the pawned stuff. I think it would be better if she was a much harder bargainer and the DC of Appraise skill check to get better prices from her would get significantly higher (also considering, that the Gloves of Appraisal with their +6 skill bonus to Appraise is quite available). It would also mean a benefit for characters who put some skill points on Appraise instead of the usually powerhouse Lore, Heal, plus Spellcraft for casters, sneaking skill for rouge-likes, encouraging more variety in future PCs.

1.1) As an addendum to above, Liesel should be more picky about what she buys. I saw many times Raven's Plume items in Liesel's inventory, which is a nonsense. Why would she buy such items? She also buys items with charge on full price even if there is only one charge left in it. I don't know if it could be scripted, but her paying progressively less for an almost drained item would make much sense.

2) Speaking of Raven's Plume, some of their items are just too good for their prices. I am thinking mainly of the Amnian card decks and the Turmish sweets. They make regular potions and scrolls totally obsolate, being cheaper, multiversal (the card decks) and having less weight. A serious bump in their prices (even getting it three times or more higher) is very due IMHO.

All of these are just my subjective opinions/feelings but hopefully giving some food for thought!

[Mystic Warden]

Dec 12, 2015 12:58:45 GMT -5 Fire Wraith said:

And yes - I dunno, maybe we should just tell people not to sell or give stuff to anyone of a lower tier, not just based on the item. Meaning that a level 20 shouldn't be selling a tier 3 item to a level 11, because even though that level 11 can easily get it, the level 20 is going to be positively swimming in tier 3 items, and it's much easier to get for them than it is for the level 11.

Maybe we also need to reduce non-item cash drops in higher end dungeons, though I don't think that's as much the problem. Maybe we need more high-end consumeables for 16/20+ PCs?

Cash is not the problem, if something could be toned back a bit it is actually the item drops! As per my previous post, what causes a cash overflow is too much items and too good pawning price for those.

Outright ban of trading between PCs is not a good idea IMHO. The way it not worked when players were forbidden to accompany much lower lvl PCs to higher lvl dungeons, it will not work on this either. As yourself wrote earlier FireWraith, you can't police and Big Brother over the players all the time.

[trylobyte]

Two suggestions I'd make regarding the current system, to hopefully ease the burden.

I think hard level caps on dungeons hurt some classes more than others.  Restricting every class by the same standard doesn't make sense for some classes.  Rogues and Bards, especially, can be far more effective than their raw level would suggest - There is little functional difference between a level 15 bard and a level 18 bard except that the level 18 bard can cast Mass Haste a few times, especially since Bard Song (the main reason to go pure bard) essentially stops scaling at level 16.  Even with most full BAB classes there's little difference between level 16 and 18 except a feat.  If you're going to cap dungeon entry, I would lighten the lowest-level restriction to line up with the next-highest gear tier (so dungeons that can drop purples require blue tier players, dungeons that can drop oranges require purple tier players).  This would preserve your intention of restricting people from pulling loot that's too good but would also make more sense.

I would also encourage reducing the number of equipment items that come from dungeons while increasing consumables, crafting components, gold, and gems.  Coming home from a gnoll run with 4 pages of gear, including a full page of purples and a pair of oranges, was normal for a 'lucky' run when I ran the place a lot.  This results in a flooded market oversaturated with gear and all but eliminates the thrill of finally getting the perfect item, since odds are if you don't find it you can buy it from a higher-level player who's pulling several pages of items per dungeon or from Hawk's dozen-page inventory.  More to the point with Hawk, her prices stop being meaningful after about level 11 or so for all but the most consumable-heavy classes, since even the average player will have a way to pull in hundreds of thousands of gold a week while Hawk's price for a Tier 4 purple weapon is a mere 50-60K.  Adding consumables would also reduce the reliance many characters have on Use Magic Device and scrolls, and could also allow for the inclusion of new, unusual effects!  This would reduce the overall availability of high-end equipment and thus increase its value.  The downside to this, of course, is that having more consumables means more buffs are more widely available.

[Mystic Warden]

Dec 12, 2015 14:14:25 GMT -5 trylobyte said:

I would also encourage reducing the number of equipment items that come from dungeons while increasing consumables, crafting components, gold, and gems.  Coming home from a gnoll run with 4 pages of gear, including a full page of purples and a pair of oranges, was normal for a 'lucky' run when I ran the place a lot.  This results in a flooded market oversaturated with gear and all but eliminates the thrill of finally getting the perfect item, since odds are if you don't find it you can buy it from a higher-level player who's pulling several pages of items per dungeon or from Hawk's dozen-page inventory.  Adding consumables would also reduce the reliance many characters have on Use Magic Device and scrolls, and could also allow for the inclusion of new, unusual effects!  This would reduce the overall availability of high-end equipment and thus increase its value.  The downside to this, of course, is that having more consumables means more buffs are more widely available.

+1 to that. I also think that more consumables are not an issue. What is currently usually around and available is not game breaking, even if they are a bit more frequent. Actually, if some consumables-killing items would be removed or significantly priced up (as I suggested earlier) they would be getting used and burned through more frequently.

[Mystic Warden]

One more idea: with the component based crafting system slowly getting fully implemented, the policy of crafted item < looted item should be re-visited. Why?

If I wish for a specific item for my PC, than I need to be lucky only once to get it via loot drop. If I have to get it made, I need to be lucky once for each of its component plus find and agree with somebody to make the item for me! It is harder and takes longer time to get that given item through crafting and this is in line with the actual suggestion to make items a bit more difficult to be available.

Orange level items could remain non-craftable, but for purple and below it could work nicely.

[bracethyself]

A couple of quick thoughts:
1) When you implement a new system don't rush to tweak it, give it a few months then see what shakes out. Constant and rapid tweaks to these systems on PWs leave you with tangled balls of mess and 'tweak' fatigue. The implementation seems to favor the conservative so leave it for a bit and see what happens.

2) In favor of the dungeon locks and item tiers as they are. The instances where someone is accidentally excluded just outside the dungeon because the group didn't realize they were lower level are not high in number. This will decrease as the system is more fully circulated. True that due to build, class mix, etc. some characters are more powerful and could maybe float up two tiers to hunt, I haven't got the impression that is something that this server wants to encourage.

3) Agree with reducing the number of permanent useful items and replacing them with consumables, crafting components, miscellaneous treasure (art objects, etc.).

4) A few higher level quests (or even dungeons really) could be created that require the collection of a few certain items (10 diamonds say or a set of three specific art objects) in order to get access to the quest or dungeon. i.e. Crusty old tale spinner says: I can tell ye how to access the old tower but I want three rubies for it. Could be keyed to specific books or maps (which could be both sold and dropped in loot). This makes the random treasure bits potentially more valuable and makes PCs potentially wince a bit everytime they sell something not knowing whether or not it might be usable later on. Complicated, but could not only add some fun to misc treasure but some flavor as well.